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The Latest On PK Subban

added 9:29am,

 

Filed in: NHL Teams, Montreal Canadiens, | KK Hockey | Permalink
  Tags: pk+subban, pk+subban

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IwoCPO's avatar

Tick Tock

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 01/26/13 at 10:20 AM ET

Jeff  OKWingnut's avatar

What, no conficence in Q?

Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 01/26/13 at 10:26 AM ET

NIVO's avatar

Tick Tock

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 01/26/13 at 09:20 AM ET

We are on the same page Chief, I keep saying to get him! You sign him for 6 and both he and #55 are locked up until 2019. He might come down on the money if a longer contract is given imho. I say try at 5.2-5.3/5 or 6yrs.

Posted by NIVO from underpants gnome village on 01/26/13 at 11:15 AM ET

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The problem is none of you guys would want Holland to trade what Subban would be worth.

Here’s a Subban deal that gets it done, maybe:

Filppula, Helm, and a #1.  And that’s probably low.  Detroit would probably have to replace the #1 with one or two of their top 5 prospects.

And honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Montreal demand Kronwall back in the deal.

In other words, there aren’t a lot of trades to make here that help Detroit enough to make it work out.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 01/26/13 at 12:27 PM ET

awould's avatar

Offer sheet.

Posted by awould on 01/26/13 at 12:53 PM ET

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Offer sheet.

Right, but those ‘aren’t done’ except by the one or two doofus GMs who are going to have a hard time finding trade partners in the future.

Besides, all Montreal would do is match it… unless you’re saying Detroit should sign him to a 7+ mil a year deal as a 23 year old kid, which could be a franchise killer.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 01/26/13 at 12:59 PM ET

awould's avatar

I know. Long shot. Either way it is, he is RFA. But would rather overpay than give up what Montreal would require and still pay a bundle to sign him.

Posted by awould on 01/26/13 at 01:03 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

Filppula, Helm, and a #1.  And that’s probably low.  Detroit would probably have to replace the #1 with one or two of their top 5 prospects.

And honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Montreal demand Kronwall back in the deal.

Thats not a realistic request for a player you are trying to sign for just 2.5 a year, and Montreal would know that.  It would also hurt their cap to have 2 or 3 players worth of dollars coming over, and not sending any the other way, especially with the dip in the cap next season, and their need to sign David Desharnais to a relatively lucrative contract if he continues to prove as valuable to the team as he was last year.

A couple of prospects and a first rounder is more likely, but as long as Montreal is winning, they will be in no hurry to make a trade, leaving the offer sheet as the only way to get Subban.  And no, I would not want to pay the price in draft picks to get him here under those circumstances.

However, having said all that, Holland needs to do something to get this team some defensive depth.  Having only one defensive call up (Lashoff) in your system is a huge oversight on Kenny’s part, especially knowing all along he was going to lose Stuart this year, and Lidstrom could have left at any time over the last few.  You can’t just keep signing the Huskins of the world and expect to have a competitive back end.

Posted by Hootinani on 01/26/13 at 01:04 PM ET

NIVO's avatar

The problem is none of you guys would want Holland to trade what Subban would be worth.

Here’s a Subban deal that gets it done, maybe:

Filppula, Helm, and a #1.  And that’s probably low.  Detroit would probably have to replace the #1 with one or two of their top 5 prospects.

And honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Montreal demand Kronwall back in the deal.

In other words, there aren’t a lot of trades to make here that help Detroit enough to make it work out.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 01/26/13 at 11:27 AM ET

I could pretty much guarantee Helm would NOT be on the “who is available” list. Franzen, and even Fil would be no doubt. We have a glut of forwards, they of course would want a D man in return there is no question about that. Who would it be, well that would remain to be seen. As far as prospect D men i doubt that either, so your left with whats in Detroit. Quincey, White most likely. Hate to see a big body in Ericcson go, but if it happens it happens. I’d hope they’d take Kindl, Emmerton, Tatar. Just my guesses as none of us know whats gonna happen. But certain guys are clearly off limits.

Posted by NIVO from underpants gnome village on 01/26/13 at 01:28 PM ET

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I know. Long shot. Either way it is, he is RFA. But would rather overpay than give up what Montreal would require and still pay a bundle to sign him.

The problem is that if you overpaid Subban and got him Detroit would be dead next year as far as the cap goes.

Even if they got Subban for ‘just’ 6 mil a year they’d be over 51 mil with just 15 guys signed and Howard, Fil, Brunner and others coming up as UFAs.

So we’re talking about a situation where Detroit be out the #1’s they lost in making the offer sheet, and then they’d be out the players they couldn’t retain in FA because the guy they added cost a bunch against the cap.  That’s a lose-lose situation.  They’re better off just offering up the guys the Subban deal would force them to walk (or some combination of them), and save themselves the 4 or 5 #1’s in the bargain.

Thats not a realistic request for a player you are trying to sign for just 2.5 a year, and Montreal would know that.

No, they wouldn’t.  Montreal doesn’t think that 2.5 mil is Subban’s market value.  Nobody thinks that.  What Montreal is doing is playing hardball with a kid whose rights they own.  Montreal would value Subban thusly: as a 23 year old #1 defenseman with a decent offensive touch and a lot of upside.  An asset like that, in a trade, is worth a bunch.

However, having said all that, Holland needs to do something to get this team some defensive depth.

He signed Huskins.  That’s going to be the move.  That, and waiting for everyone to get healthy.  Detroit just plucked Smith from GR, and trying to get more than 1 guy off your AHL system at the same position every year is a big expectation.  If Detroit was healthy they’d have 7 or 8 legit dmen, depending on whether you count Quincey or not.

IMO you can’t really have a realistic organizational plan to address the possibility 3 of your dmen are going to be hurt all at the same time.  It’s impossible to stockpile enough depth to absorb that many losses in that short a time frame, especially when you’re already coming off a year where your #1 and #3 dmen have left via FA or retirement and you had to fill those holes, too.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 01/26/13 at 01:38 PM ET

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I could pretty much guarantee Helm would NOT be on the “who is available” list.

Nivo, Subban was Montreal’s #1 dman last year.  He’s 23.  He’s got offense.  He’s a strong skater.  He’s decently sized.  He’s got some grit and aggressiveness to him.

You aren’t going to get a guy like that by giving away guys you want to get rid of or who you wouldn’t mind losing.

I want to take a step back here to say that I think Detroit should not make any offers for Subban.  I’m skeptical about the guy.  That said, Montreal would be insane to value him any more lowly than I did at the top.

The ‘Poo-poo platter’ isn’t going to even get your foot in the door.  That’s why I said at the beginning “The problem is none of you guys would want Holland to trade what Subban would be worth.”  There is no combination of Emmerton’s Lashoff’s and Mursak’s that get a deal done for a legit #1ish guy.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 01/26/13 at 01:43 PM ET

NIVO's avatar

I agree with some of what you say and agree entirely on what Subban brings as a player. For this to get done the biggest problem is they(Mon) get back a D man worthy of their needs. We simply dont have one to trade like that. Now if you only look at it from a value standpoint, Det would need to get rid of a forward or 2(yes i know thats not a d-man). Franzen constantly comes to mind for me. He is marketable, and would be a big salary dump for us to even think of signing Subban. You do indeed help yourself out in both salary and blue line solidity this way. But knowing tick tock, this wont even happen. I still dont think its a bad move. The cost offset is doable with a forward in the package. We can discuss for hours on end, but i’ll leave it go for now. Montreal could be desperate in the coming month if they start to tank, i’ll wait to play out the scenario.

Posted by NIVO from underpants gnome village on 01/26/13 at 01:58 PM ET

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For this to get done the biggest problem is they(Mon) get back a D man worthy of their needs. We simply dont have one to trade like that.

If that’s what they are looking at, I agree.

If I were running the Habs, though, I wouldn’t try a d for d swap.  Montreal’s D is actually pretty good.  I mean, Kaberle’s not a slouch and he’s their #5.  With Markov back, Subban’s not as necessary.

Montreal’s problem is at forward, not d.  They only have one good center and maybe 3 good wings.

If I were running Montreal I’d package Subban for at least two current NHL forwards, and try for three.  And then a prospect or two.

Franzen constantly comes to mind for me. He is marketable, and would be a big salary dump for us to even think of signing Subban.

Franzen’s a possibility, of course, but it wouldn’t change the need to have Fil in the deal for Montreal.  And I’m not sure putting Franzen in the deal substantially improves it from Montreal’s perspective given the new rules regarding those legacy contracts.  Franzen’s never been the healthiest guy in the universe, he’s already 33, and he’s signed until age 40.

There are a bunch of other teams who could put together much better fits for Subban in a trade than Detroit can right now.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 01/26/13 at 02:08 PM ET

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My personal take is that Subban is the kind of player that Holland wouldn’t even consider trying to acquire. Except maybe this season?....No. No chance.

Posted by godblender on 01/26/13 at 02:26 PM ET

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There are a bunch of other teams who could put together much better fits for Subban in a trade than Detroit can right now.

Plus, this.

Posted by godblender on 01/26/13 at 02:27 PM ET

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but it wouldn’t change the need to have Fil in the deal for Montreal.

Do you really think the lynchpin for the deal is going to be a guy who might play 40 games for Montreal before signing elsewhere this summer?

But hell, from Detroit’s standpoint, *#$%@& yes offer them Fil.  Who wouldn’t include a third line centre who has consistently shown that he’s not the second line centre Detroit wants him to be for a defenseman who would give Detroit a bona fide top pairing?  That also makes room in the top 6 for Nyquist or Andersson.

Posted by Garth on 01/26/13 at 02:33 PM ET

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My personal take is that Subban is the kind of player that Holland wouldn’t even consider trying to acquire.

Yeah, you’re right.  Too young.  Maybe in 15 years when he’s almost finished.

Anyhow, last year we all would’ve said the same thing about Tootoo, yet here he is wearing the Winged Wheel.

Posted by Garth on 01/26/13 at 02:35 PM ET

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