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Afternoon Line Part 2

"Well, it's disappointing. I feel they're trying to bully us and trying to draw a line in the sand pretty much. It's tough. We want to be negotiating. We came their way again and nothing. They just keep telling us keep coming. They're staying where they are, so you end up negotiating with yourself, and that's definitely something we don't want to do."

"I don't know where we go from here. It's very frustrating."

-Martin St. Louis via Damian Cristodero of Lightning Stikes

Filed in: NHL Teams, Tampa Bay Lightning, NHL Talk, NHLPA, | KK Hockey | Permalink
  Tags: martin+st.+louis

Comments

Evilpens's avatar

no your Declared Nuclear war By Hiring Fehr &^ with you “Get Bettman” mantra, You reapeth what you Soweth

Posted by Evilpens on 11/21/12 at 04:53 PM ET

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no your Declared Nuclear war By Hiring Fehr &^ with you “Get Bettman” mantra, You reapeth what you Soweth

Fehr didnt Lock out the players.  And he’s agreed to nearly every major NHL demand.
All they are asking is for the NHL to move a little bit.

Posted by jwad on 11/21/12 at 04:57 PM ET

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Fehr didnt Lock out the players. 

That’s such a goofy distinction to make.

The CBA expired.  There was no mechanism under which the NHL could function.

The NHL and NHLPA both offered terms numerous times under which they’d be willing to play.  Both sides have declined the offers of the other side numerous times.  Trying to blame this on the owners for not taking one of the players offers when the players could have just as easily taken one of the owners offers is silly.

And he’s agreed to nearly every major NHL demand.

A) No, he hasn’t.

B) The money was, is and will always be the major sticking point. 

Trying to spin it like either the NHL or the NHLPA has been exceptionally accommodating is as silly as saying that you’ve already rented the limo, bought the tux and made the dinner reservations… you just haven’t gotten Kate Upton to agree to go out with you yet.

That last bit is sort of the hardest part.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/21/12 at 05:02 PM ET

Evilpens's avatar

& the NHL said No Clown ! geeez how many times are you told No before you realize No MEANS NO!!!

Also he still believes they will cave because the Libtards in the media have sources that have told them the Owners DON"T want to cancel a season.

wrong most of these same owners 86"d season before without Mr. Perfect’s brilliance

Posted by Evilpens on 11/21/12 at 05:03 PM ET

Evilpens's avatar

Trying to spin it like either the NHL or the NHLPA has been exceptionally accommodating is as silly as saying that you’ve already rented the limo, bought the tux and made the dinner reservations… you just haven’t gotten Kate Upton to agree to go out with you yet.

That last bit is sort of the hardest part.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! that was classic

Posted by Evilpens on 11/21/12 at 05:04 PM ET

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That’s such a goofy distinction to make.

Is it though?  Who had the issues with the last CBA.  Who demanded the changes. 
This did not start because the players were demanding things.

Posted by jwad on 11/21/12 at 05:05 PM ET

Evilpens's avatar

Posted by jwad on 11/21/12 at 05:05 PM ET

Blind Squirrel finds acorn Film at 11. He stumbled blindly upon the truth, The Players Like the system as it is now & the Owners Don’t !

Posted by Evilpens on 11/21/12 at 05:08 PM ET

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The Players Like the system as it is now & the Owners Don’t !

So why do the players bear more blame for this situation.  After all, this is the system the owners forced with the last lockout.

How is liking things the way they are declaring “Nuclear war” as you put it?

Posted by jwad on 11/21/12 at 05:13 PM ET

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The CBA expired.  There was no mechanism under which the NHL could function.

The NHL and NHLPA both offered terms numerous times under which they’d be willing to play.  Both sides have declined the offers of the other side numerous times.  Trying to blame this on the owners for not taking one of the players offers when the players could have just as easily taken one of the owners offers is silly.

That’s not the point, the point is that Fehr and PA offered to continue playing under the expired CBA while negotiations took place to hammer out a new CBA. However the NHL refused to do this, so I don’t think it is a goofy distinction to make.

Posted by Pulsar93 on 11/21/12 at 05:15 PM ET

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The CBA expired.  There was no mechanism under which the NHL could function.

This is not true.  Expired CBA is not the same as a work stoppage. 
In collective bargaining situations work can and frequently does continue while sides work out an agreement.


The NHL used it the lockout as a tool to try and extract more concessions.  It has been succesful in that regard.  But its also made it harder for both sides to work together on a resolution.

 

Posted by jwad on 11/21/12 at 05:23 PM ET

Evilpens's avatar

Posted by jwad on 11/21/12 at 05:13 PM ET

Maybe come back when you have at least some knowledge of economics

Posted by Evilpens on 11/21/12 at 05:40 PM ET

starsfan26's avatar

the point is that Fehr and PA offered to continue playing under the expired CBA while negotiations took place to hammer out a new CBA.

Right, I’m sure Fehr and the NHL Workers, I mean players, would have been all about getting a new CBA done while still receiving their million dollar paychecks.

The people who pay you dictate what you’re paid…always have, always will.  The players WILL end up accepting a worse deal later on and they will never make the money back from losing this season. 

Harsh reality.

Posted by starsfan26 on 11/21/12 at 05:47 PM ET

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Is it though?  Who had the issues with the last CBA.  Who demanded the changes. 
This did not start because the players were demanding things.

Again, neither side has taken the offers of the other side.  Trying to call it a ‘lockout’, while technically correct, completely ignores the reality of the situation.

There was no CBA.  The owners wanted a new one, the players wanted the old one.

Just because the last CBA was stupidly written doesn’t mean the owners should be under some kind of obligation to just renew it as written off into infinity.  That’s why they put expiration dates on these things.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/21/12 at 05:51 PM ET

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Right, I’m sure Fehr and the NHL Workers, I mean players, would have been all about getting a new CBA done while still receiving their million dollar paychecks.

It is my understanding that all HRR received from playing under the expired CBA would have been put aside and they would just get their escrow checks and the only difference would be that neither side would have to foot the bill for the damage of the lockout cause there would’ve been no damage. It doesn’t really matter though since it didn’t happen.

The people who pay you dictate what you’re paid…always have, always will.  The players WILL end up accepting a worse deal later on and they will never make the money back from losing this season.

I agree completely the players will have to take a worse deal and when that happens the last NHL proposal will look like a gold mine compared to what the NHL will offer in 1 or 2 years time. The NHL only needs 8 owners to keep the lockout going and IMO they already have those 8 guys and they are ready and willing to wait this out.

Posted by Pulsar93 on 11/21/12 at 06:25 PM ET

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Again, neither side has taken the offers of the other side.  Trying to call it a ‘lockout’, while technically correct, completely ignores the reality of the situation.

Yes, but it was the league who were demanding changes.  THEY are the ones who decided that the NHL couldn’t go on the way they were during the last CBA.

Just because the last CBA was stupidly written doesn’t mean the owners should be under some kind of obligation to just renew it as written off into infinity.

You’re absolutely right, the owners were under no obligation to renew it.  Nor were they under any obligation to lock the players out.

The players didn’t decide not to play, the NHL decided to lock the players out.

See?

A lockout is when the employers decide the employees can’t go to work.

A strike is when the employees decide not to work.

That’s why “lockout” and “strike” aren’t the same word.

Posted by Garth on 11/21/12 at 06:33 PM ET

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The CBA expired.  There was no mechanism under which the NHL could function.

Repeating the same lie over and over doesn’t make it true. I stopped reading the same bullshit, and now have to suffer quotes in other people’s comments.

Posted by hockey1919 from mid-atlantic on 11/21/12 at 07:21 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Repeating the same lie over and over doesn’t make it true. I stopped reading the same bullshit, and now have to suffer quotes in other people’s comments.

Posted by hockey1919 from mid-atlantic on 11/21/12 at 07:21 PM ET

This. Exactly this.

It is a flat-out lie to say that there is no mechanism to operate the NHL without a CBA. It is the NHL’s choice to have done this. To word it as though there was not a choice is a lie.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/21/12 at 11:13 PM ET

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This is not true.  Expired CBA is not the same as a work stoppage. 
In collective bargaining situations work can and frequently does continue while sides work out an agreement.

Of course they can.  How?

By functioning under the same conditions as were allowed under the previous CBA.

A CBA the NHLPA would have been perfectly happy to play under forever.

Which means they would have been under no real pressure to compromise on anything, since they were already getting more just by showing up.

So your ‘solution’ to the issue is for the owners to just give the players everything, continue to take losses, and shut up about it.

Yes, but it was the league who were demanding changes.  THEY are the ones who decided that the NHL couldn’t go on the way they were during the last CBA.

Because it couldn’t, obviously.  And because the deal expired, obviously.

Like jwad, your position is that since the league signed a stupid, poorly-written deal last time they should have to live under the terms of that stupid, poorly-written deal forever.

I don’t think that position makes any sense, and you would certainly never apply that kind of thinking to your own life so even you realize at some level it doesn’t make any sense.

Repeating the same lie over and over doesn’t make it true. I stopped reading the same bullshit, and now have to suffer quotes in other people’s comments.

And yet.

It is a flat-out lie to say that there is no mechanism to operate the NHL without a CBA.

Then, quite sadly, you’re just ignorant about the realities at play here.  So ignorant of them, in fact, that someone pointing them out to you makes you assume they are just lying, so far beyond your comprehension are the topics being discussed.

It’s like Ash going back in time with a car and a shotgun.

Your ‘mechanism’ for continuing to play is just the old CBA, you goof.

Like Garth and jwad, your position is that the owners should just keep playing under the same old stupid deal they wrote like a pack of idiots the last time indefinitely, or at least until they could convince an NHLPA that would have no earthly reason to agree to anything to agree to a lot.

And, like Garth and jwad, you’d never think for a moment to apply that kind of positively retarded principle to your own life.  If you sign a bad deal, when its up its up and you gleefully run off to sign a better one.

As you should do.  As rational, thinking beings ought to do.

But no, for you pro-player types you have to hang things like rationality and common sense on a peg by the door, roll up your sleeves, and then go elbow deep into a vat of bubbling bias.

Why?  No idea.  IMO it makes a lot more sense to hang the biases and personal stuff at the door and make a rational, business decision.  Different strokes, I guess.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/22/12 at 04:33 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Then, quite sadly, you’re just ignorant about the realities at play here.  So ignorant of them, in fact, that someone pointing them out to you makes you assume they are just lying, so far beyond your comprehension are the topics being discussed.

How very Bettmanic of you.

Somebody calls you out for lying so you attack them by calling them stupid because they’re not wrong, but if you can discredit them, then it doesn’t matter.

Unfortunately, that’s not how this works. You’re wrong and you’re lying and it’s disgusting that you continue to do so.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/22/12 at 08:05 AM ET

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Somebody calls you out for lying so you attack them by calling them stupid because they’re not wrong, but if you can discredit them, then it doesn’t matter.

Amusing commentary coming from the guy doing precisely that.

You’ve refused to engage on any substantive issue.  Instead, you’ve resorted to the pretty silly tactics of just saying I’m ‘lying’, without actually being able to substantiate any such comment beyond a barely upgraded version of ‘nuh uh’.

Your position (and Garth’s and jwad’s) is that the NHL should have to play under their old deal indefinitely just because you goofs miss hockey, so the owners should take it in the pants for you.

You wouldn’t (and haven’t) apply that standard to the players.  You wouldn’t (and haven’t as far as I am aware) applied that standard to yourselves.

Because you’re so ignorant of reality you think simply playing under the old deal indefinitely actually represents a rational, functioning mechanism either for the season to continue or for negotiation to continue.  Because you are a prisoner to your biases you are incapable of comprehending how someone who is able to set them aside could possibly come to a different conclusion.

So rather than engage in any self-examination, or really even some manner of a baseline competent exchange of ideas you call that person a liar.

The funny thing (or sad thing depending on one’s outlook) about this is I’m guessing you actually have deluded yourself into thinking you’ve taken some sort of moral high ground because you’ve labeled the opinion of someone who disagrees with you as a lie, when you yourself have shown a fairly casual relationship with both truth and accuracy any number of times in the past few weeks.

And that’s how you chose to spend some time on Thanksgiving morning.

Oh boy.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/23/12 at 09:45 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

You’ve refused to engage on any substantive issue.  Instead, you’ve resorted to the pretty silly tactics of just saying I’m ‘lying’, without actually being able to substantiate any such comment beyond a barely upgraded version of ‘nuh uh’.

What substantiation?  You need actual proof that you can have work and industry without collective bargaining?  Come on now.  What law has come out since 1967 that makes it illegal for there to be professional hockey without a CBA?

Your position (and Garth’s and jwad’s) is that the NHL should have to play under their old deal indefinitely

Nope.

Wait.. is that it?  You’re saying that the ONLY two choices are to lockout or play under the old CBA?

Yeah, that’s also a lie.

You have created a false dichotomy of choice here and are saying that the only “realistic” way is a lockout because you just CAN’T play without collective bargaining.

None of this is true. tons of people work without collective bargaining and there is nothing which legally sets hockey apart, not even a history of having collective bargaining.  Your view is too narrow and you’re accusing me of being stupid, delusional, and biased because I’m taking a wider view of the misrepresentations you’re spouting. If you’re half as smart as you think you are (which I believe is true), then you’re smart enough to realize this and therefore saying that you can’t play hockey without a CBA is an intentional lie rather than accidental ignorance.

Strawman, ad hominem, moving goalposts.  You’re like a cautionary tale about rhetoric.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/23/12 at 10:06 AM ET

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Paul Kukla founded Kukla’s Korner in 2005 and the site has since become the must-read site on the ‘net for all the latest happenings around the NHL.

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