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Wings’ On The Ice


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DrewBehr's avatar

So who gets waived/benched when Weiss and/or Alfredsson return?

Posted by DrewBehr from The Mitten on 11/22/13 at 01:35 PM ET

SYF's avatar

23-4

I’m stunned Jesus Lashoff is practicing after coming down with the flu in the middle of last night’s game.  Hey, he’s a hockey player.

Posted by SYF from Zata's Epic Viking Beard on 11/22/13 at 01:43 PM ET

topshelf14's avatar

I’m drinking the koolaid today. With Weiss and alfie returning, helm shaking off the rust and nyquist and Tatar establishing themselves, what is this team capable of by season’s end?

Posted by topshelf14 from Detroit, MI on 11/22/13 at 02:18 PM ET

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@topshelf - love the enthusiam. I’ve been drinking the kool-aid for 20+ years. The Wings, even though they just went through a long losing streak, are the best and most consistent when it comes to the post-season. We will be there again this year, but are we actually a legit contender? I don’t know at this point. Cleary and Sammy really don’t contribute anything; we’re at the quarter point of the season and a week from Thanksgiving so now is a pretty good barometer of how the season will play out, for the most part. Sammy and Cleary have 5 points in 35 games combined. Miller has 2 in 24. Meanwhile, we have Eaves and Tootoo in GR, players I think are better and more versatile than the aforementioned roster players. KH needs to figure this out or we won’t really be in the conversation come June.

Posted by ZandPasha11 on 11/22/13 at 02:30 PM ET

Primis's avatar

what is this team capable of by season’s end?

Posted by topshelf14 from Hockeytown, USA on 11/22/13 at 01:18 PM ET

Nothing so long as Cleary is going to inexplicably remain in the Top 6.

Cleary *still* in the top six is where Babcock loses all credibility.

So who gets waived/benched when Weiss and/or Alfredsson return?

Posted by DrewBehr from The Mitten on 11/22/13 at 12:35 PM ET

Nyquist and Tatar probably.

Posted by Primis on 11/22/13 at 02:33 PM ET

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Datsyuk is getting shafted with Cleary and Bert on his line. Bert is effective in the corners and in front of the net but his lack of foot speed slows the line down. The first line matches against other 1st lines and 1st pairing defense usually. Id rather see:
Mule-Dat-Abby
Nyq-Zetty-Bert
Tat-Helm-Cleary
Miller-Andy-Sammy

Posted by Anderj8 on 11/22/13 at 02:39 PM ET

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Datsyuk is getting shafted with Cleary and Bert on his line. Bert is effective in the corners and in front of the net but his lack of foot speed slows the line down. The first line matches against other 1st lines and 1st pairing defense usually. Id rather see:
Mule-Dat-Abby
Nyq-Zetty-Bert
Tat-Helm-Cleary
Miller-Andy-Sammy

Posted by Anderj8 on 11/22/13 at 01:39 PM ET

I would play Tatar on the top 6. Abby and Helm have been good together. Cleary doesn’t belong anywhere near top 3 lines. I’d rather see Sammy there. At least has a semi-decent shot. Cleary at this point brings literally nothing to the table

Posted by George0211 on 11/22/13 at 02:41 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Added to the post, Holland says no moves needed untill DD returns.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 11/22/13 at 02:42 PM ET

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And when everyone is healthy up front:
Mule-Dat-Alfie
Z-Weiss-Nyq
Tat-Helm-Abby
Andy-Cleary/Bert/Sammy/Miller

Posted by Anderj8 on 11/22/13 at 02:43 PM ET

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When everyone is healthy, this is what we should do:

Z-Pav-Alfie
Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist
Tatar-Helm-Abby
Miller-Andy-Sammy/Bert

Waive Cleary

First Griffin call-ups: 4th liners Glendening or Ferraro

Kronner-E
DD-Quincey
Smith-Kindl

Lashoff (waive Lashoff if Cleary stays for cap space needed for Gus).

First G call-ups: Ouellet, Almquist, Sproul


But seriously, waive Cleary.

Posted by ZandPasha11 on 11/22/13 at 02:45 PM ET

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Added to the post, Holland says no moves needed untill DD returns.

Of course, why try now when you can panic and waive another veteran the day before DD comes back?

Posted by Garth on 11/22/13 at 02:46 PM ET

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Lashoff (waive Lashoff if Cleary stays for cap space needed for Gus).

First G call-ups: Ouellet, Almquist, Sproul


But seriously, waive Cleary.

Posted by ZandPasha11 on 11/22/13 at 01:45 PM ET

Considering the love affair Babcock and Cleary have, he won’t get waived.
And why would you wave Lashoff, he is a dependable stay-home D-man. He’s been more steady than Quincey or Smith and at times Kronwall.

Posted by George0211 on 11/22/13 at 02:48 PM ET

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I would play Tatar on the top 6. Abby and Helm have been good together. Cleary doesn’t belong anywhere near top 3 lines. I’d rather see Sammy there. At least has a semi-decent shot. Cleary at this point brings literally nothing to the table

Abby played with Dat and Mule last year and the line was effective. Tats has been great but I like him paired against other teams weak lines apposed to top 2. gives him more space to create. Helm and Tats have great speed together and its worked well so far so might as well keep it together. I do agree with the Cleary Sammy switch. Doesnt really matter to me between those to. Cleary has been irrelavent so far.

Posted by Anderj8 on 11/22/13 at 02:48 PM ET

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Cleary won’t get waived as George said. And Lashoff is signed for 3 years for cheap. He has by far exceeded his contract. Quincey is our weakest link. Trade him

Posted by Anderj8 on 11/22/13 at 02:51 PM ET

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@George:

I’d way Lashoff because (a) he’s expendable, due to the amount of prospects nipping at his heals like Ouellet and Almquist, to name a few: (b) because Gus is now on the team permanently, that means we have to make room for his cap hit once DD returns from LTIR, and Lashoff is probably the cheapest to do that with. Also, due to the fact that most teams are near the cap limit and haven’t claimed previous players put on waivers like Emmerton, Tootoo and Eaves, I highly doubt Lashoff would get picked up considering he has 2 more years left on his deal.

All in all, I’d love for them to waive Cleary but like you noted, Babcock won’t let that happen. So I think Lashoff is next up for the waiver wire.

Posted by ZandPasha11 on 11/22/13 at 02:53 PM ET

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I’d way Lashoff because (a) he’s expendable, due to the amount of prospects nipping at his heals like Ouellet and Almquist, to name a few: (b) because Gus is now on the team permanently, that means we have to make room for his cap hit once DD returns from LTIR, and Lashoff is probably the cheapest to do that with. Also, due to the fact that most teams are near the cap limit and haven’t claimed previous players put on waivers like Emmerton, Tootoo and Eaves, I highly doubt Lashoff would get picked up considering he has 2 more years left on his deal.

All in all, I’d love for them to waive Cleary but like you noted, Babcock won’t let that happen. So I think Lashoff is next up for the waiver wire.

Posted by ZandPasha11 on 11/22/13 at 01:53 PM ET

Waiving a D-man, and a dependable one at that, to make room for a forward doesn’t make much sense, but I understand what you’re saying. Ouellet and Almquist are not NHL ready, IMO, maybe next year.
We have too many forwards, even after waiving 3 of them.
By the way, I would think Lashoff will get pick up. He is cheap and he is good. A lot of teams out there that need a dependable D-man.
But then again, I thought teams needing PK help would take Eaves and that didn’t happen

Posted by George0211 on 11/22/13 at 02:58 PM ET

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I’d way Lashoff because (a) he’s expendable, due to the amount of prospects nipping at his heals like Ouellet and Almquist, to name a few

But waiving him for Nyquist means we still have too many forwards and now we’d have too few defensemen.  Any one defenseman gets a hangnail and Detroit is playing with five D instead of six.

Four of Detroit’s defensemen have already missed time due to injury and Detroit always racks up a bunch of injury time on the back end, it would be a really poor decision to waive a defenseman.

No.  I’m guessing Miller is the next victim, unless Ken Holland suddenly develops the ability to make a trade.

Posted by Garth on 11/22/13 at 03:03 PM ET

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No.  I’m guessing Miller is the next victim, unless Ken Holland suddenly develops the ability to make a trade.

Posted by Garth on 11/22/13 at 02:03 PM ET

I sure hope not. By the way, I think Miller is Babcock’s 2nd favorite butt buddy after Cleary, so I don’t think he is going anywhere

Posted by George0211 on 11/22/13 at 03:05 PM ET

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It boggles my mind how Cleary is somehow exempt from the waiver wire no matter what. Guys are getting the ax left and right yet Cleary plays 1st line minutes but looks invisible even playing with one of the best players in the NHL. I seriously don’t get it. He is just ridiculously terrible. 3 points in 23 games.

Posted by ZandPasha11 on 11/22/13 at 03:12 PM ET

perfection's avatar

the reason why Cleary won’t or shouldn’t be waived is because he was re-signed SOLELY for his playoff performance, which was the type of physical sacrifice that no one could sustain over the course of a full season, let alone an aging veteran.

Sammy on the other hand doesn’t appear to have any other level to rise to come playoff time. He’s quite obviously the most expendable player on the team. Even Miller is one of our best penalty killers on a team that’s fourth and rising in PK’s this season.

I really don’t care if Cleary does anything all year. He can be a healthy scratch through March, but as long as he looks like he did in the Hawks series come playoff time, his contract is a total steal.

I think some people forget Babcock is playing a long game here. We are securely in line for a playoff spot as of now and frankly, would probably make the playoffs in the east without Nyquist. The regular season is essentially a lengthy pre-season. Once the playoffs start, regular season stats are totally moot. I’d guess just about every team in the league would want Dan Cleary on their roster in game one of the playoffs. He is a proven warrior. That is why they brought him back and that is what I will judge him on. If he was making 3 or 4 mil like some other guys, I would hold him to a higher standard during the regular season, but for his salary, I’m good with him just staying healthy and being the kind of playoff specialist that helps push teams over the edge. If losing Danny DeKeyser is why we barely lost to the Hawks, Cleary’s performance is why we nearly beat the eventual cup champs. Second on the team in scoring and first on the team in leading by physical example. Memories are short around here that’s for sure.

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 11/22/13 at 03:22 PM ET

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@perfection.

your post was too long to quote. Anyway, everyone here understands WHY Cleary was resigned. We all saw and appreciated his effort in the playoffs. Problem that people have with Cleary’s signing is that he effectively took a roster spot from Nyquist and at the beginning of the season from Tatar. Both of these guys are more talented than Cleary and providing much more offence than him. The whole Babcock is thinking ahead part makes no sense, when you see Cleary playing top 6 minutes and doing NOTHING with that. If Babcock and Holland are thinking ahead does it not make sense, to let guys like Tatar and Gus play top 6 minutes and get experience and get better and not the aging guy who can’t skate, shoot or stick handle.

Posted by George0211 on 11/22/13 at 03:29 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Of course, why try now when you can panic and waive another veteran the day before DD comes back?

When the roster mess started this summer, didn’t we all say that Tootoo, Emmerton, and Eaves would be gone?

So how was it a panic move when those things actually happened?  Of course the team made those moves at the last minute before they had to. It would be stupid not to.

No.  I’m guessing Miller is the next victim, unless Ken Holland suddenly develops the ability to make a trade.

The Red Wings have spent about 148 minutes killing penalties this season; Drew Miller has been on the ice for 66 of them, about 45%  I’d be absolutely shocked if your guess were correct.

as for the Lashoff stuff, the Wings’ problem is cap space, not roster space. They’re not going down to six D-men on the roster to make the cap space to keep 14 forwards. The tradeoff between Lashoff and Ouellet is $55K. That’s not going to happen.

 

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/22/13 at 03:36 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

As for benchings: in the near-term, I’d say that if Alfredsson were healthy on Saturday, Tatar would be sitting.

He did not have a good game

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/22/13 at 03:40 PM ET

Avatar

Sorry, I don’t buy it. 

Cleary was re-signed because Babcock and Holland love him.  End of story.

If he was re-signed just for the playoffs he would’ve ben given a smaller contract full of bonuses.  If he was signed just for the playoffs he wouldn’t have played in 22 of Detroit’s 23 games so far.  They would be saving his body so he was fresh in the playoffs.  If he was signed just for they playoffs then he wouldn’t be playing top six minutes at the expense of better players.  He wouldn’t. Be playing power play minutes or thought penalty kill minutes.

If he was signed just for his playoff performance then why wouldn’t they have re-signed Brunner?  Brunner had one more goal and one fewer point than Cleary in the playoffs while playing three and a half minutes less per game than Cleary and Brunner had the added value of being not an anchor around the team’s neck during the regular season.

Posted by Garth on 11/22/13 at 03:41 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

If he was re-signed just for the playoffs he would’ve ben given a smaller contract full of bonuses.

Dan Cleary is 34. It is against the CBA to sign a non-ELC player who isn’t 35+ to a contract with bonuses.

 

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/22/13 at 03:42 PM ET

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So how was it a panic move when those things actually happened?

The panic move wasn’t getting rid of them, it was waiving them because they had no other options.

Or do you think the plan was to not get anything for Emmerton, Tootoo, Eaves and whoever is next, pay them their NHL salaries to play in the AHL all while still being on the hook for part of their cap hits?

I’d be absolutely shocked if your guess were correct.

I’m a fan of Miller and I hope I’m wrong but there aren’t a lot of other options. I. Would love for it to be Samuelsson but before DD went down the Wings had something like $600k in cap space and waiving Samuelsson would only add $100k on top of that, meaning the Wings would be over the cap again with Nyquist still on the roster.

I hope holland can work something out but if it comes down toe waiving someone again, I don’t think there are many options.

Posted by Garth on 11/22/13 at 03:47 PM ET

TKShreve's avatar

I like Miller. He should not be bean-counted off this team. Skates hard, digs in the corner, hits, grinds, PK’s like a sheik, and blocks whatever comes his way. And he’s much swifter on his skates than some of the names mentioned above.

Posted by TKShreve from East Uptown on 11/22/13 at 03:48 PM ET

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Dan Cleary is 34. It is against the CBA to sign a non-ELC player who isn’t 35+ to a contract with bonuses.

I wasn’t aware of that.  Thanks for correcting me.

Posted by Garth on 11/22/13 at 03:49 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

The panic move wasn’t getting rid of them, it was waiving them because they had no other options.

Or do you think the plan was to not get anything for Emmerton, Tootoo, Eaves and whoever is next, pay them their NHL salaries to play in the AHL all while still being on the hook for part of their cap hits?

They were waived and had no value. Every team passed on them. It’s not panic. When whomever leaves the organization for whatever cap reasons, it’s not going to be a loss. They’re not tossing anything of value off the roster here.

Which is why I’d be shocked if they tossed a guy who plays half of their PK minutes.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/22/13 at 04:01 PM ET

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If trade Quincey and a pick for a less expensive defensive defenseman with a good first pass and good hockey IQ. Creates salary cap space for Nyquist without losing a defenseman for nothing.

Posted by Anderj8 on 11/22/13 at 04:04 PM ET

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If trade Quincey and a pick for a less expensive defensive defenseman with a good first pass and good hockey IQ. Creates salary cap space for Nyquist without losing a defenseman for nothing.

Posted by Anderj8 on 11/22/13 at 03:04 PM ET

Quincey has 2nd worst +/- in the league among D-men. Why would anyone take him.

Posted by George0211 on 11/22/13 at 04:07 PM ET

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I think there is a chance it is Cleary. If they can’t trade him, I think it’s possible they waive him. At 5:2 odds is Mikael Samuelsson, depending on the numbers. If the $100K gives them what they need, it will be he who goes to GR.

Couldn’t they trade him to Edmonton or Nashville (teams that clearly need a veteran and someone who could play on the top 6/power play) or somewhere and eat let’s say $2.25M of the salary? It frees $750K. I mean, I’d take a bag of pucks or future late round pick…

There are a lot of teams that could use a veteran guy who at least knows how to play and can score if placed in the right circumstances. Problem is, obviously, he can’t keep up with the pace too well anymore. But certainly some team could benefit from him, no?

Posted by VitoLambruski on 11/22/13 at 04:23 PM ET

MsRedWinger's avatar

I’m just happy for Gus.

Posted by MsRedWinger from Flori-duh on 11/22/13 at 04:32 PM ET

Crater's avatar

He did not have a good game

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/22/13 at 02:40 PM ET

Re:Tatar, I didn’t think it was bad. And I still say Babcock would play him over Sammy. Now with Weiss and Alfie back.. Yeah, i could see Tatar as the odd man out, for the moment.

Posted by Crater from SoCal on 11/22/13 at 04:52 PM ET

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With both Nyquist and Tatar having to go through waivers, I only see 3 possible players getting moved/waived when DD comes off LTIR: Cleary, Miller, Abby. Of those 3 I think only Abby *may* have some trade value and thus he would most likely be picked up by someone if waived.

Waiving Sammy gives almost no cap relief. Won’t happen.

Posted by AZWinger on 11/22/13 at 05:18 PM ET

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WHAT THE FFUUUUUUCCCCC***KKK Cleary is still on Pav’s line? I’m swearing at my computer right now. Mother F***CKER….

Maybe Babcock is trying to get him a few points on the pav line so he (babcock) doesn’t look like an absolute elementary child of a coach for signing cleary in the first place. Man… I’m like… sort of excited but sort of not for Saturday’s game b/c Cleary is on line #1… gtfo!

Posted by Pasha1277 on 11/22/13 at 05:19 PM ET

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The Red Wings have spent about 148 minutes killing penalties this season; Drew Miller has been on the ice for 66 of them, about 45%  I’d be absolutely shocked if your guess were correct.

But is there no one else who can do his job? Sure, he is a good utility player, but the difficulty of this situation warrants what could be considered desperate measures. Miller is probably the least skilled guy on the roster. I don’t really think Cleary or Samuelsson have a spot on this team, but if there’s no way to get rid of them…maybe someone else will have to go.

It really sucks, no matter who you’re talking about. I feel bad for Cleary, I feel bad for Samuelsson, and I’d feel bad for Miller. But business is business.

Posted by CrimsonPhoenix on 11/22/13 at 05:56 PM ET

topshelf14's avatar

It’s frustrating to think Tatar would be the next in line for a healthy scratch, but I think you’re right. When he’s on the ice he is absolutely noticeable, he does tend to make some glaring mistakes with the puck but that’s because he actually HAS THE PUCK!!! He is a rookie so I accept his mistakes and see potential in his game whereas Cleary has no potential and should be that 13-14th forward on our roster, definitely not a top 6 forward.

Posted by topshelf14 from Detroit, MI on 11/22/13 at 06:10 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

But is there no one else who can do his job?

I don’t think people understand exactly how difficult it is to kill penalties at the level that Drew Miller does.

I also think that if Drew Miller were given Dan Cleary’s responsibilities, he’d do it better.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/22/13 at 06:19 PM ET

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I also think that if Drew Miller were given Dan Cleary’s responsibilities, he’d do it better.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/22/13 at 05:19 PM ET

That’s a great point.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 11/22/13 at 06:28 PM ET

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The Malik Report is a destination for all things Red Wings-related. I offer biased, perhaps unprofessional-at-times and verbose coverage of my favorite team, their prospects and developmental affiliates. I've joined the Kukla's Korner family with five years of blogging under my belt, and I hope you'll find almost everything you need to follow your Red Wings at a place where all opinions are created equal and we're all friends, talking about hockey and the team we love to follow.