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Patrick Eaves Out For Up To One Month

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MoreShoot's avatar

What does that do to the roster picture?  I don’t know the rules. They can’t short term IR Eaves, right.  Does this mean he gets the cut?

Posted by MoreShoot on 09/20/13 at 01:55 PM ET

Crater's avatar

What does that do to the roster picture?  I don’t know the rules. They can’t short term IR Eaves, right.  Does this mean he gets the cut?

Posted by MoreShoot on 09/20/13 at 01:55 PM ET

They will Long term IR him, i’d assume.

Posted by Crater from SoCal on 09/20/13 at 02:03 PM ET

George Malik's avatar

The Wings will put Eaves on the LTIR and his $1.2 million cap hit will disappear, allowing the team to only have to clear the total $2.387 million in cap overage off the roster, and with Helm going on the LTIR to start, really, the team’s out of cap trouble for now. They do have 15 forwards, however, so one has to go, likely Emmerton or Tootoo, unless KH gets wild and sends Nyquist down.

Capgeek for reference: http://www.capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=15

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/20/13 at 02:05 PM ET

George Malik's avatar

Nyquist is too important to demote to GR for too long. You don’t want to put your team at a competitive disadvantage.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/20/13 at 02:09 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

Eaves could go on either short term or long term IR if the team physician deemed it necessary.

Short Term IR means a player will be unfit to play for a minimum of 7 days from the day of initial diagnosis.

Long Term IR means the player will be unfit to play for a minimum of 24 days AND 10 games

But neither of those actually grant cap space.  They allow a team to spend up to the amount of the injured player’s contract, minus any available cap space, over the cap to replace that player for the duration of the injury.

So in Detroit’s case, if they were to put Eaves on IR, they would only get to spend 1.2mil (the amount of Eaves contract) over the cap to replace him, either with call ups or free agents.  But according to capgeek, Detroit is already 2.3mil and change over the cap, so it will do them no good to place him on IR.

I also don’t think it has any effect on the 50 contract cap, because his contract still counts as a valid contract even while on IR.  This one I’m not positive on, though.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 02:17 PM ET

MoreShoot's avatar

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 02:17 PM ET

So does this mean Eaves gets cut?

Posted by MoreShoot on 09/20/13 at 02:20 PM ET

George Malik's avatar

The team still has 50 players signed.

Putting Eaves and Helm on the IR would allow the team to spend that $ on the players they’re using to replace them—i.e. roster players—but then they have to clear the full amounts of the returning players’ salaries when they return.

I don’t see the team putting Nyquist or DeKeyser in the AHL for long, if at all, given that they want to *win games*...

And those who suggest that now is the time to pull the trigger on a blockbuster trade for a top-four defenseman ignore the fact that *no one trades top defensemen away from their teams at this time of year.*

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/20/13 at 02:21 PM ET

George Malik's avatar

Teams cannot trade injured players, so Eaves would be placed on the LTIR. As far as I know LTIR can be retroactively applied to exhibition games missed.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/20/13 at 02:22 PM ET

Crater's avatar

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 02:17 PM ET

So does this mean Eaves gets cut?

Posted by MoreShoot on 09/20/13 at 02:20 PM ET

Define cut? This isn’t Football. They don’t just send people home and call it a day. He will go on Long Term IR. No, just putting eaves on LTIR does not solve their issues, but it does temporary solve 1/3rd of the issue.  As George said, Helm + Eaves on LTIR means we’ve temporarily solves the cap issues.  They will need to send one person down, or trade them to get the roster down by 1 more.

Now in 4 weeks when they both need to come back they have to make 2 more moves to make room for them.

Posted by Crater from SoCal on 09/20/13 at 02:24 PM ET

Avatar

Remember, it was stupid for the Wings to sign Cleary because there was no space.

What, oh what, were they going to do?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 09/20/13 at 02:25 PM ET

Crater's avatar

And to supplement what George said above, they Can’t trade OR waive injured players. So Eaves is going nowhere for at least 4 weeks.

Posted by Crater from SoCal on 09/20/13 at 02:27 PM ET

George Malik's avatar

Training camp injuries temporarily alleviate the problem. In the end, good role players are going to lose their jobs because Cleary’s been re-signed, and the road to the NHL is tougher for the Sheahans and Ferraros.

Tootoo, Eaves and Emmerton are still, at some point soon, going to be ex-Wings. That’s still a mess.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/20/13 at 02:27 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

After looking around a little, it looks like players on IR still count against the 50 contract limit.  So even if Eaves and Helm start on the IR, Detroit still would have to get rid of 2 pro contracted players to get back to the 50 limit.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 02:29 PM ET

Crater's avatar

After looking around a little, it looks like players on IR still count against the 50 contract limit.  So even if Eaves and Helm start on the IR, Detroit still would have to get rid of 2 pro contracted players to get back to the 50 limit.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 02:29 PM ET

Detroit isn’t over the 50 contract limit. You can’t be. the NHL will not let you sign a 51st contract. It would be null and void. They are over the ROSTER limit for the NHL.

Posted by Crater from SoCal on 09/20/13 at 02:31 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

Oops, my fault, I miss counted the number of contract on cap geek.  They are the 50 mark, not 52.  Leaving Brunner and White in the list screwed me up.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 02:34 PM ET

SnLO's avatar

to get back to the 50 limit

hmm I didn’t realize they were over the 50 limit too.  It is a real shame a team cannot just cut players that aren’t a good fit or not just going to make it. a la Sammy and Tootoo.  The salary penalty (as opposed to salary cap) rears its ugly head.  Who thinks up this stuff.

Posted by SnLO from beyond the M-1 on 09/20/13 at 02:35 PM ET

SnLO's avatar

Posted by Crater from SoCal on 09/20/13 at 02:31 PM ET

ahh fixt   ty

Posted by SnLO from beyond the M-1 on 09/20/13 at 02:36 PM ET

Crater's avatar

Being at the limit IS a huge disadvantage for them. For instance if a player they like gets waived, or they want to make a trade they have to shed as much as they take in. It also meant that any of their pro-tryouts such as McIntyer, have zero chance of being signed. He if anything will get a contract in Grand Rapids, but that leaves him with no option to be called up, as the wings can’t sign him to a 2 way deal.

Posted by Crater from SoCal on 09/20/13 at 02:43 PM ET

Avatar

given that they want to *win games*...

Then how do you explain re-signing Cleary? ZING!!!!

Posted by Garth on 09/20/13 at 02:43 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

Tootoo, Eaves and Emmerton are still, at some point soon, going to be ex-Wings. That’s still a mess.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 09/20/13 at 02:27 PM ET

If they trade Tootoo and Emmerton (somehow) and resign to put Gus in the minors for the year, they could possibly keep Eaves around, since they will get rid of Samuelsson and his 3mil cap hit next year, and the cap is going up.

Its a shitty deal for Gus, but I really hate to lose a versatile player like Eaves.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 02:44 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Let’s clarify a few things that have been muddled.

Putting Eaves on LTIR (which they will do) can be retroactive to yesterday when his injury happened. he can stay on LTIR for as long as he’s injured, but the Wings can’t keep him on IR if he gets healthy and wants to come back.

During this time, $1.2M of the amount that the Wings are over the salary cap will not matter.  They are essentially “clearing” Eaves’ cap space as far as their need to become cap compliant by October 1st.

The 50-man contract limit has no effect here other than to say the Red Wings may not sign *ANOTHER* player to replace Eaves (which is moot, because they already have enough).

Eaves will not take up a roster spot while he’s on LTIR, so they clear the need to open a spot while he’s hurt as well.

As soon as Eaves is deemed fit to play, the Red Wings have 24 hours to become roster/cap compliant. his $1.2M will go back to “counting” and his roster spot will go back to being taken.  If they don’t have the roster/cap space, they will have to move/waive somebody to make that happen.

Failure to make those moves is not an option. If Ken Holland refuses to make the moves necessary to make the Red Wings CBA compliant, the league has the authority to do so for them as well as the authority to fine them, take away draft picks, force them to forfeit games, and fire their GM/Coach/scouts/whomever they choose.

Whatever happens, they will not cancel contracts. The NHL does not want to fight the NHLPA on contracts signed in good faith by the players. They’ll refuse to register a new contract, but they’re not going to go backwards and cancel Dan Cleary’s signing because Patrick eaves gets healthy in time for November.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 09/20/13 at 02:46 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

During this time, $1.2M of the amount that the Wings are over the salary cap will not matter.  They are essentially “clearing” Eaves’ cap space as far as their need to become cap compliant by October 1st.

This is absolutely not the case.  That 1.2mil does not come off their cap.  If he was the only one on IR as of the start of the season, it would literally have no effect on their cap compliance.  It would allow them to spend up to 1.2mil over the cap, which they already have done ($2,387,879 over). 

With Helm also on IR, however, they could spend 3.325mil over the cap, which would get them cap compliant for the short term.  It still leaves them 1 player over the roster limit, though.

Also, NHL contracts are guaranteed.  Only through buyout or the a player being in breach of contract can the contract be “cancelled”.  Its not like the NFL, where players can be released from their contracts at anytime.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 02:58 PM ET

perfection's avatar

Regarding sending Gus down, from what I understand he’s only a couple games away from no longer being waiver exempt. Is this correct? So even if he started the season on GR, one callup and he’s up for good right?

In any case, I’m with you all the way George re Gus. He is too good and too valuable to this team offensively in a really competitive league to not play a prominent role. I can definitely see the logic behid the strategy of trying to use his status to keep one more NHL body in the pipeline because injuries will happen, but while we overachieved in the playoffs, we also came one point away from not making the playoffs in large part due to the lack of secondary scoring. We have definitely improved in that regard, but I think still need Gus too much to send him down.

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 09/20/13 at 03:11 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

That 1.2mil does not come off their cap

I didn’t say it comes off their cap, I said it doesn’t matter, which absolutely IS the case.

If he was the only one on IR as of the start of the season, it would literally have no effect on their cap compliance.  It would allow them to spend up to 1.2mil over the cap, which they already have done ($2,387,879 over).

It would LITERALLY have the effect of forcing them to clear only $1.18M of their remaining cap noncompliance amount before being allowed to field a roster.

So yes, it WOULD have an affect on their cap compliance; it would simply not have ENOUGH of an affect to make them cap-compliant.

If eaves goes on IR, they could waive both Emmerton & Tootoo and be cap compliant whether or not either of them is claimed off waivers.  They could remain in this situation until Eaves is ready to return.

Only through buyout or the a player being in breach of contract can the contract be “cancelled”.

This is not true either and what I said was correct. The League has the authority to cancel contracts which should have never been signed in the first place (refusal to register) and they may cancel contracts for punitive measures (not a breach of contract).

- - -

People get caught up in the oddities as far as how LTIR works for cap space, but there is LITERALLY no point in cocking it all up by pedantically mentioning that it’s a case of the players’ hit being replaceable rather than saying it’s a case of “space being made” (which I did), because they are one and the same.

Patrick Eaves going on LTIR alleviates $1.2M worth of the Red Wings’ salary cap situation for the entire time he is on LTIR.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 09/20/13 at 03:15 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 09/20/13 at 03:11 PM ET

Yep, Gus is only 2 game away from no more exemption.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 03:15 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Oh the league can also cancel contracts in the event of “unforseeable circumstances” which affect the operations of the league (like World War Z happening)

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 09/20/13 at 03:26 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 09/20/13 at 03:26 PM ET

I see what you’re saying regarding the cap, but can you provide an example of a contract being cancelled ( and not just not registered) as a punitive measure?

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 03:43 PM ET

calquake's avatar

I am a little puzzled regarding the gnashing of teeth over Emmerton and Tootoo being let go.  Who would you let go that would keep them on the team?  Sammy?  Perhaps, but I don’t buy the argument that they are better hockey players than Sammy.  Who else?

Posted by calquake on 09/20/13 at 03:44 PM ET

perfection's avatar

While Emmerton may or may not be “better” than Sammy, he’s most definitely much more of a center which could be a critical hole if Helmer stays on the shelf.

also, is it really true you CAN’T trade a hurt player? I can’t think of examples but I feel like I’ve seen hurt players traded in the past. I mean, as long as both teams know what’s going on the value is adjusted accordingly… is it actually against the rules?

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 09/20/13 at 03:50 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

I am a little puzzled regarding the gnashing of teeth over Emmerton and Tootoo being let go

Is anyone worried about them being let go?  I mentioned I didn’t wanna lose Eaves, especially with Sammy still being around. But IMO Tootoo should have never been signed in the first place, and we already have better versions of Emmerton.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 03:53 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

but can you provide an example of a contract being cancelled ( and not just not registered) as a punitive measure?

No I can’t, but I can point you to section 18-A(2)(b) which specifically gives the commissioner the authority to do so.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 09/20/13 at 04:02 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

No I can’t, but I can point you to section 18-A(2)(b) which specifically gives the commissioner the authority to do so.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 09/20/13 at 04:02 PM ET

just wondering if this had ever happened, as it would seem likely that the NHLPA would have something to say about it if the player didn’t agree to the cancellation.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 04:04 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

also, is it really true you CAN’T trade a hurt player? I can’t think of examples but I feel like I’ve seen hurt players traded in the past. I mean, as long as both teams know what’s going on the value is adjusted accordingly… is it actually against the rules?

Technically it is not against the rules.  I thought it was for a long time and asked around, but it isn’t.

You can’t waive an injured player or buy one out (technically, you CAN, but in the event of the waivers, the commissioner can cancel the waivers if you try to do that and in the event of the buyout attempt, the player can grieve the buyout… which probably wouldn’t matter because you have to waive a player BEFORE you can buy him out anyway).

It’s essentially not done because it creates a lot of little headaches and potential arguing points (plus, I’m not sure a lot of GMs are aware of whether it’s truly allowed or not)

“Yes, we knew he was injured, but our team doctor disagrees with your team doctor about the extent of his injury and now we’re going to complain that you lied to us.”

“Well, I was injured and then got traded and I have to switch all of my history/records/diagnoses from one team doctor to another and my personal physician has to be involved and if any of them don’t get along, it’s an even bigger headache to fix everything while keeping the player’s medical information both as open as necessary and as secret as required by federal law.”

“Since a non-roster player’s status is locked for a period of time, do we have to immediately pay his lodging/per-diem when we trade for him, or can we use the 28-day window that we’d have for a non-injured player to decide whether we’re going to try to keep him with the big club?”

“Hey, did that team just trade/trade for a hurt player in an attempt to game the salary cap?”

It’s just a lot of hassle that I think nobody really wants concrete answers to.

 

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 09/20/13 at 04:11 PM ET

d ca's avatar

Okay facts:

Eaves’ salary cap hit is 1.2M. Helm’s cap hit is 2.125M

Detroit has 26 players under contract.

1) Roster size consequences: Putting those player on IR matters. First it gets the Wings down to 24 players (NHL’s max is 23). Nyquist CAN avoid waivers so he can be sent to GR bringing them down to the NHL maximum without having to trade, waive, etc.

2) Salary cap consequences: The first day the players get put on IR means the Wings can exceed the salary cap by those total contract numbers to replace them (even if those replacements are currently under the team’s 26 contracts as of 9/20). So the team will be able to exceed the cap by 3.325M (if Eaves and Helm are the LTIR’ers). The Wings are currently 2.287M over….

BUT they then could use the remaining overage to pay for a portion ($1.038M) of Alfredsson’s performance bonus this year instead of it eating into next year’s cap.

So yes their would be 2 real, positive consequences to placing Helm and Eaves on LTIR.

When those two are medically cleared for action then only problem is roster size (since they aren’t adding any contracts to replace the two on LTIR).

 

 

Posted by d ca on 09/20/13 at 04:17 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

just wondering if this had ever happened, as it would seem likely that the NHLPA would have something to say about it if the player didn’t agree to the cancellation.

Posted by Hootinani on 09/20/13 at 04:04 PM ET

I can’t say if it’s ever happened before, but I don’t know of any cases.  I don’t expect it will ever happen either, because the NHL has so many ways to avoid having to go with such a last-resort bombshell which would absolutely involve the NHLPA fighting on principle to make it as difficult as humanly possible for the NHL to make any future cases.

Heck, I’m sure that if Aaron Hernandez were an NHLer, they’d just suspend him without pay until his contract expired and be done with it that way.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 09/20/13 at 04:17 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Pleiness at Red Wings Front on the Wings cap and roster position…

Detroit currently has 26 NHL players, three over the roster limit. Seventeen of them are forwards.

The Wings are also $2.4 million over the salary cap.

With Darren Helm (groin, back) more than likely starting the season on injured reserve and Gustav Nyquist still having options to go to the minors without having to clear waivers, that leaves one player left to trim.

Eaves could begin on short-term injured reserve if the recovery period lasts longer than Oct. 1, which is the night the regular season opens.

That would get the Wings to the roster max and put them under the salary cap.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 09/20/13 at 06:06 PM ET

perfection's avatar

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 09/20/13 at 04:11 PM ET

was Bertuzzi not still injured when we originally traded for him, before he went to Anaheim? I feel like he still sat out a bit after we got him, but I’m not positive. I know it doesn’t happen often, but I just feel like I’ve seen it before. Especially say at the deadline when someone has a relatively minor injury and will be 100% by the playoffs.

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 09/20/13 at 07:33 PM ET

The Meal's avatar

Well, that’s one way to stay with the team longer…

Posted by The Meal on 09/20/13 at 08:33 PM ET

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The Malik Report is a destination for all things Red Wings-related. I offer biased, perhaps unprofessional-at-times and verbose coverage of my favorite team, their prospects and developmental affiliates. I've joined the Kukla's Korner family with five years of blogging under my belt, and I hope you'll find almost everything you need to follow your Red Wings at a place where all opinions are created equal and we're all friends, talking about hockey and the team we love to follow.