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Morning news: On Holland’s hot seat and a pair of Tweets of note

Of Red Wings-related note this morning:

1. Sportsnet's Sean "Down Goes Brown" McIndoe penned a list of four GM's "On Smoking Hot Seats," and McIndoe believes that Ken Holland is feeling heat today:

Ken Holland, Red Wings: Holland is tricky. Along with Poile, he’s the longest-serving GM in the league, with a tenure dating back to 1997. He’s won three Cups in that time, and pulled off the difficult feat of transitioning the Wings from the Yzerman era without missing a beat. He’s done a fantastic job.

But the one thing he hasn’t had to do in all of that time is rebuild, and that’s what the Red Wings need right now. It’s fair to ask whether Holland is the guy to do it. Right now, the Red Wings have lots of long-term cap headaches and not much in the way of blue-chip prospects. Granted, part of that was by design as the team tried to squeeze an extra few years of contending out of the Datsyuk/Zetterberg era, but there’s a strong case to be made for a fresh start top to bottom.

Holland says that's not going to happen.

After all Holland has done in Detroit, he’s earned the right to have a say in how it ends. Some Detroit fans have been frustrated in recent years as guys like Yzerman and Nill have left the organization to take GM jobs elsewhere, but the time hadn’t come to make a change yet. That day may be coming sooner rather than later.

2. And, of Twitter-related note, from the Red Wings:

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Comments

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McIndoe believes that Ken Holland is feeling heat today:

First of all, heat from who?! Second of all, if he is indeed feeling the heat, it’s only the heat to make the playoffs this year (and not to properly rebuild). And if KH is under pressure to make the playoffs at all costs, it’s a dangerous situation for the future of this team because “the Legwand” type of deal might happen.

Posted by VPalmer on 11/14/17 at 11:13 AM ET

OlderThanChelios's avatar

(Holland) pulled off the difficult feat of transitioning the Wings from the Yzerman era without missing a beat.

But then, in transitioning from the Lidstrom/Datsyuk era, he missed every “beat” in the book.

He completely mismanaged the cap trying to “squeeze an extra few years of contending out of the Datsyuk/Zetterberg era” when they never had a legitimate chance at making it past the 1st round.

He made one ridiculously bad trade and FA signing after another, beginning with the trade for Quincey in which he gave up the first round pick that Tampa Bay turned into Vasilevskiy. And Weiss’ buyout cap hit of $1.667 will be on the books until June of 2021.

And he lost a number of serviceable (and inexpesive) bottom-six guys while overpaying guys like Helm and Glendenning.

But, in the end, I think VP is right. His job isn’t on the line. The only pressure Chris Illitch seems capable of exerting is to make the playoffs so we all can “enjoy” watching the Bolts sweep them in the first round.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids, MI on 11/14/17 at 11:48 AM ET

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First of all, heat from who?! Second of all, if he is indeed feeling the heat, it’s only the heat to make the playoffs this year (and not to properly rebuild). And if KH is under pressure to make the playoffs at all costs, it’s a dangerous situation for the future of this team because “the Legwand” type of deal might happen.

I love when people in the comments section share the inside information they have that nobody else is privy to.

Posted by CharDeeMacDennis on 11/14/17 at 11:57 AM ET

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He completely mismanaged the cap trying to “squeeze an extra few years of contending out of the Datsyuk/Zetterberg era” when they never had a legitimate chance at making it past the 1st round.

I think it’s a big misconception that KH was trying to win another cup with Dats and Z. If that was the goal, he would have traded futures for the likes of Kessel and other players like that who had an awful contract, but could really help in 2010-2012 for example when we still had a chance to compete. The goal has always been to continue the streak and KH has always been stuck in the middle (Datsyuk and others mentioned it in interviews). He was not going all in to win the cup and he was not doing a proper rebuild. I think he needed to make that decision after Suter and Parise said no to the biggest offers KH presented to any hockey player in his 20 years tenure as a GM.

Posted by VPalmer on 11/14/17 at 11:57 AM ET

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I love when people in the comments section share the inside information they have that nobody else is privy to.

I love when people interpret the posts the way that fits their agenda. The word “if” in the beginning of the sentence means conditional tense and conditional tenses are used to speculate about what could have happened and that’s exactly what I did, speculated on how the conversation between KH and CI might have gone.

Posted by VPalmer on 11/14/17 at 12:02 PM ET

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I think KH has done what he has always said he was trying to do… remain as competitive as possible while slowly integrating youth.  Everyone continues to complain about the “bad trades” but do we really need more bottom six guys?  Nobody we traded away would help us now.  We’d have better cap hit I guess.

Now… was this a good plan?  Probably not.  But Holland has executed (more or less) exactly the plan he had set forward.

Posted by DieByTheWing on 11/14/17 at 12:51 PM ET

WingedRider's avatar

remain as competitive as possible while slowly integrating youth.


True but KH does not have a Kucherov, etc, etc etc.  In the end the bad drafting at a bad spot lies at his feet.  Others are either lucky in later rounds or scouting is picking gems. At least the 4 kids are helping the ship stay a float.

Hopefully the prospects (top 6 Fwds, top 2 DMen) will start to show up over the next 5+ yrs

Posted by WingedRider from Saskatoon, SK on 11/14/17 at 01:21 PM ET

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I love when people interpret the posts the way that fits their agenda.

I love it when people are reluctant to take responsibility for what they say and blame others for not understanding their “intended” meaning.

In the immortal words of Donald Trump, sad.

Posted by howeandhowe from Seattle on 11/14/17 at 01:55 PM ET

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the one thing he hasn’t had to do in all of that time is rebuild, and that’s what the Red Wings need right now. It’s fair to ask whether Holland is the guy to do it.

This is what has been said around here a lot. This is the heat that Holland is under. He is inexperienced at a rebuild. We all know that.

Posted by howeandhowe from Seattle on 11/14/17 at 01:57 PM ET

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Nobody we traded away would help us now.

I wouldn’t mind have Jarnkrok or Janmark-Nylen back. Personally, I was a little disappointed he traded Jarnkrock. He would be the #3 center and we wouldn’t have needed Neilsen: more salary cap.

Posted by howeandhowe from Seattle on 11/14/17 at 02:00 PM ET

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Which is why maybe he says it’s not a rebuild lol.
Honestly, if they had hit on a few picks, and it remains to be seen that maybe they will… we’d actually be in a decent spot.  Not any worse off than picking in the top 5 possibly.  The talent there is generally higher, but you can still get stinkers. 
They really should have tanked the McDavid/Matthews years…. took that shot.  Then rebounded.  I don’t think they are in as horrible situation as so many… but not sure they have the prospects coming currently to really take them to contenders again.  With no top D and no top C…. that’s a tough sell.

Posted by DieByTheWing on 11/14/17 at 02:03 PM ET

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Which is why maybe he says it’s not a rebuild lol.

Exactly. He doesn’t have the vocabulary for it.

but not sure they have the prospects coming currently to really take them to contenders again.

Honestly, it all depends on how Cholo progresses. If he fills the hole at #1D then Holland looks good. If Cholo turns out like Smith or Kindl (our former defensive first rounders picked under Holland) Holland looks like a chump. After this past camp, I feel pretty good about Cholo. Is he a #1D? maybe, but probably not. Still, I do feel better about him going into this season then I did last season. I can only think of one person who would disagree with that…..but hey, he disagrees with everything…...

Larkin seems to be forming into a #1C and if Rass pans out a #2C then all is good, right? Pick up another Dman in the next draft and all is back to good in 2 more years.

....It’s a lot of “ifs”.......

Posted by howeandhowe from Seattle on 11/14/17 at 02:11 PM ET

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Honestly, it all depends on how Cholo progresses. If he fills the hole at #1D then Holland looks good. If Cholo turns out like Smith or Kindl (our former defensive first rounders picked under Holland) Holland looks like a chump. After this past camp, I feel pretty good about Cholo. Is he a #1D? maybe, but probably not. Still, I do feel better about him going into this season then I did last season. I can only think of one person who would disagree with that…..but hey, he disagrees with everything…...

Larkin seems to be forming into a #1C and if Rass pans out a #2C then all is good, right? Pick up another Dman in the next draft and all is back to good in 2 more years.

....It’s a lot of “ifs”.......

Posted by howeandhowe from Seattle on 11/14/17 at 02:11 PM ET

Yes way too many what ifs, and I’m afraid you’ve set the ceiling too high for most of these players.

Take Larkin. Nothing suggests tha he’s going to develop into anything close to guys like McDavid, Matthews, Stamkos, Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, Seguin, Backstrom, Kopitar, etc…If all goes well maybe he becomes a Logan Couture, Derek Stepan, Ryan Johansen, Bo Horvat. Nice players. All considered as #1 C’s. But guys like this don’t carry you to Cups without considerable help.

It would be great if Rass develops into a Ryan O’Reilly or Ryan Getzlaf. But he seems more likely to become a Jordan Staal or Martin Hanzal. Again, useful 2C’s. But nothing like an O’Reilly or Getzlaf.

Sure Cholowski could become a 1D. But he’s very, very unlikely to become a Karlsson, Hedman, Pietrangelo, Burns, and instead more likely a 1D such as a Gardiner, Reilly, Leddy, Edler. Again, all considered as top pairing d-men, but not guys that can win Cups without considerable help.

This is the problem. Maybe one of these guys punches above their ceiling and becomes a superstar. But the chances of all of them doing this are virtually nil. And the pipeline after that is pretty empty. Guys like Svech, Hronek, Sarijaarvi don’t appear on the path to elite talent. We should be glad if they all become contributing NHL players. Goaltending is another ares with basically one prospect.

Posted by fatsavage on 11/14/17 at 03:00 PM ET

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I love it when people are reluctant to take responsibility for what they say

I take full responsibility for my opinions I express on any forum HockeyinHD.

Posted by VPalmer on 11/14/17 at 03:17 PM ET

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I take full responsibility for my opinions I express on any forum HockeyinHD.

ahhh…..thanks for making my point.

Sincerely,

Not HinHD…..ask Paul & George….

Posted by howeandhowe from Seattle on 11/14/17 at 03:57 PM ET

ilovehomers's avatar

Good discussion here save for the back and forth pissing competition.

Posted by ilovehomers on 11/14/17 at 08:00 PM ET

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KH has made some less than stellar signings, particularly in the past 3 years. Where I fault him most though is that he has refused to fire Blashill.

It is clear that Blashill never had the respect of these players or else they would have shown more resolve and will in any number of situations over the past two plus seasons.

He should have been fired about this time last year and after the season for sure. Gallant was available and he is the kind of coach most of these young players need. Instead, we see the old guard on the team pulling the strings….how else could you explain Kronwall being on the #1 PP after 2 full years of futility.

Posted by NewfieWing on 11/14/17 at 08:42 PM ET

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I would have possibly got rid of him for Gallant…but I don’t think he’s as bad as people make him out to be… I really fear it’s just some of the players have gotten too complacent.  They were starting to be that way under Babs even…. really the team needed a makeup change more than a coaching change.  I think Blash has some good ideas, I just don’t think the team follows him? Hard to say.  You might be bang on Newfie, but it’s laways hard to say.  Gallant got kicked out of Florida on a promising team… not sure why exactly, lots of rumors, but he certainly has Vegas playing hard, but then, he also has a team full of guys needing to prove something after being not protected…..

As for howe…. I agree. Cholo looks promising, I was never ready to throw him to the wind, he was raw, he has the tools.  That means nothing in the end but its a necessity to start the convo.  More likely is high end number 2 cieling, maybe low end number 1…. but who knows.  It would be great.  As for Ras, again… solid potential.  What he becomes who knows.  Not sure I think Larkin is a solid #1 though… I’ve always said I think eh’s more a low end number 1 or a high end number 2.  Kind of Turris like?  or O’Reilly?  NOt sure he’s an 80 pt guy…but maybe!  We definitely have some promising guys… is it enough? It could be with enough of them and a good coach.

Posted by DieByTheWing on 11/14/17 at 09:05 PM ET

ilovehomers's avatar

I’ve never appreciated the folks who want to throw out our prospects before they even get a chance. I think talking down on these kids (like how much weight they gained or disnt gain between seasons) is an extension of hating the coach, gm, org as a whole.

As much as many of us hate to admit it, the org does do some things right. Lol.

Posted by ilovehomers on 11/14/17 at 09:16 PM ET

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Sharty McDonald’s always has a way of attacking the members here. I’m lovin it

Posted by SlimChance on 11/14/17 at 09:49 PM ET

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My point about Blashill is that, from my perspective, he lost the room before he ever got them playing his way. If they are playing his way, it’s a very helter-skelter system that makes no sense to me….and likely not the players.

He could become a good coach but it won’t happen in Detroit, at least not for some time. Do we want to wait in the hope that he will eventually figure it out?

Posted by NewfieWing on 11/14/17 at 11:35 PM ET

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Not sure I think Larkin is a solid #1 though… I’ve always said I think eh’s more a low end number 1 or a high end number 2.

Me too. I want Larkin to become a #1. I think he has the drive and smarts to get there. This season has shown so far he is thinking about his game and how to improve it whereas last season he stay in neutral until he was over-frustrated by the end of the season. I’d like to see him cut his penalties but it’s reasonable because he is being more aggressive. He’s also excelling no matter who is on his line. That’s promising too.

We definitely have some promising guys… is it enough? It could be with enough of them and a good coach.
Any team is better with a good coach so I’d prefer not to follow that part of your point. The real hinge point to me is Svech. If he can make the jump this season and succeed at the next level that puts the focus of the draft squarely on picking up a Dman. If Svech doesn’t, then it’s best player available again. I do worry about Detroit picking a Dman. They have been horrible at it when picking one in the first round. Cholo please change that perception!

Posted by howeandhowe from Seattle on 11/15/17 at 12:20 PM ET

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The Malik Report is a destination for all things Red Wings-related. I offer biased, perhaps unprofessional-at-times and verbose coverage of my favorite team, their prospects and developmental affiliates. I've joined the Kukla's Korner family with five years of blogging under my belt, and I hope you'll find almost everything you need to follow your Red Wings at a place where all opinions are created equal and we're all friends, talking about hockey and the team we love to follow.