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Make A Big Hit Then Fear A Suspension?

from Brendan Savage of Mlive,

After teammate Justin Abdelkader was ejected Saturday from Game 3 of the Red Wings' playoff series with the Anaheim Ducks for a charging major that knocked Toni Lydman out of the game, Quincey admitted he's had to change his way of thinking since he was suspended a year ago for a big hit of his own.

"For a defenseman, there's risk-reward to hit anybody now," Quincey said. "There's no point. The chances of hitting a guy clean and not getting a suspension are very slim. I just try to stay between the dots and keep it simple, I guess

"Just look at the game tapes from years ago to now. There's not those huge hits you see in the corner. Very seldom. It's all in the forecheck. We're not allowed to hold up for our partner so they come in 100 mph on us but we never get that momentum to hit them. That's the difference.

"The game has changed. It is what it is. I don't know if it's sad. Like I said the risk-reward of trying to make that huge hit isn't there. There's no point. Abby is in totally different shoes than me. As a forward, that's his job. My job is to be tough in front of the net. I'm not going to make the highlight reel with a box out."

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Tony Perkis's avatar

How do you make a hit without using your shoulder? The power comes from the legs, but you use your shoulder.

Posted by Tony Perkis from Drinking at Robert's Lounge with Billy Batts on 05/05/13 at 03:16 PM ET

Primis's avatar

Shoulder to shoulder and shoulder to chest hits etc are still legal hockey hits.  You can argue all you want, but they are.  A shoulder to a guys head where the head is the principle point of contact is illegal.  I don’t know how to make it clearer than that.

Posted by John W. from a bubble wrap cocoon on 05/05/13 at 03:10 PM ET

And I don’t know how to make it any clearer to you that if you lead with the shoulder, you can’t possibly guarantee you won’t make contact with the head, or that it even won’t just look like contact to the head.  By leading with your shoulder you then have lost control of the situation and what happens after.  And int he league’s eyes leading with the shoulder is rapidly becoming a major red flag.

Therefore it’s a stupid, risky thing to even try it.  There are other ways to make that hit if you have to.  Slowness to learn and adapt is not an excuse.

Posted by Primis on 05/05/13 at 03:16 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

If you were in court would it be acceptable to say “Hey, I didn’t mean to kill that pedestrian, I was just trying to get home faster”?

it makes a huge difference as to what you’re charged with, and the sentence.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 05/05/13 at 03:18 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

I notice people (maybe it’s the same person) saying “you’re better than that” to Garth.  apparently you haven’t been in threads with him, cuz no…he’s not.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 05/05/13 at 03:21 PM ET

John W.'s avatar

Therefore it’s a stupid, risky thing to even try it.  There are other ways to make that hit if you have to.  Slowness to learn and adapt is not an excuse.

Posted by Primis on 05/05/13 at 03:16 PM ET

This I agree with, and it’s the point of the entire post and my first comments way back when.  It’s too risky to go for big hits anymore.  If the guy doesn’t get up, you’re screwed.  The entire point of the head shot rule when it came out was when the head was the principle point of contact.  Full body checks when the the head contact is incidental to the body contact is still considered legal by the rule.  But it doesn’t matter anymore, if the guy is hurt no matter where the contact is initiated, you’re done.  So if it’s going to be called this way, the big hit is pretty much going to be extinct.  Even backing in the way Kronwall does, there’s still a chance you’re elbow is going to make contact.

Posted by John W. from a bubble wrap cocoon on 05/05/13 at 03:24 PM ET

Avatar

it makes a huge difference as to what you’re charged with, and the sentence.

Really?  There are times when “I wanted to get home faster” makes it OK to murder people with your car?

I need to get a car…

Posted by Garth on 05/05/13 at 03:24 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

“I wanted to get home faster and it was an accident” gets you a lower charge than “I hate that person and was trying to run them down” vs “I was sitting at home and decided to go kill them with my car.”

yes, Garth.  it matters.  maybe go look up the difference between manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, and 1st degree murder.

I never said “makes it OK” - I said it makes a difference in what you’re charged with, and the sentence.  funny, a little earlier in this thread you were complaining about others putting words in your mouth…now you’re doing it to me.  go figure.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 05/05/13 at 03:26 PM ET

Primis's avatar

This I agree with, and it’s the point of the entire post and my first comments way back when.  It’s too risky to go for big hits anymore.

No, that right there is proof you still don’t get it.

You can still hit guys.  You CAN’T be hitting guys the way players have been.  There are other ways.  To you from what you’ve said, “hitting” means launching your shoulder at a guy, and apparently only that.

There are such things as hip checks, and other ways of addressing it.  It is not the ONLY way to hit.  It’s just the way players and people WANT to, and don’t want to change from.  Big difference.

Posted by Primis on 05/05/13 at 03:29 PM ET

DAN M's avatar

Yes, Garth.  it matters.  maybe go look up the difference between manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, and 1st degree murder.

Jodi Arias, anyone?

Posted by DAN M on 05/05/13 at 03:32 PM ET

Primis's avatar

Yes, Garth.  it matters.  maybe go look up the difference between manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, and 1st degree murder.

Posted by DAN M on 05/05/13 at 03:32 PM ET

And all 3 get you jail time regardless.  Just varying degrees of it.

Posted by Primis on 05/05/13 at 03:40 PM ET

John W.'s avatar

No, that right there is proof you still don’t get it.

You can still hit guys.  You CAN’T be hitting guys the way players have been.  There are other ways.  To you from what you’ve said, “hitting” means launching your shoulder at a guy, and apparently only that.

There are such things as hip checks, and other ways of addressing it.  It is not the ONLY way to hit.  It’s just the way players and people WANT to, and don’t want to change from.  Big difference.

Posted by Primis on 05/05/13 at 03:29 PM ET

I never said launching.  But skating into a guy shoulder first is a common, legal way to hit.  My point is the big, full speed hit is dangerous, no matter how you do it, because if the guy hets hurt, they’re going to call a penalty, whether it’s clean or not.  Because, at full speed, you are going to drive thru the guy, both guys lose their balance, and you can’t control what you get on the follow thru.

If you hip check a guy, and he’s flailing around on the ice, you’re likely to get a clipping call.  If you go ass first into a guy, and he goes flying to the ice and doesn’t get up, there’s still a chance your shoulder or elbow can get the guy up high as you go thru him.  And even tho it was clean and the head wasn’t the principle point of contact, the refs aren’t smart or brave enough to call the hit as it occured, they’re going to call the result.

So the big hit, no matter how you do it is a crap shoot on whether it gets called or not, just based on if the guy is hurt, or even just acts hurt.

Posted by John W. from a bubble wrap cocoon on 05/05/13 at 03:43 PM ET

Primis's avatar

Posted by John W. from a bubble wrap cocoon on 05/05/13 at 03:43 PM ET

You’re right, there’s always SOME risk, even to yourself, when you choose to deliver a hit.

There are safer ways than guys are choosing though.  At a certain point recklessness is in fact indefensible.

The fact is though, the league is generally not calling backwards or hip checks based on aftermath.  They are on hits facing forward and/or leading w/ the shoulder.  These players all supposedly are students of video.  It doesn’t take a pharmacist to tell you that you should proooobably stop hitting that one certain, specific way because the league’s difference reactiopns ot them are abundantly clear.

Posted by Primis on 05/05/13 at 03:49 PM ET

bleep bloop's avatar

This rule is not at all relevant to the hit but people keep talking around it without understanding it

48.1 Illegal Check to the Head – A hit resulting in contact with an opponent’s head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted. However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was avoidable, can be considered.

48.3 Major Penalty - There is no provision for a major penalty for this rule.

Also not the penalty that was called:

43.1 Checking from Behind – A check from behind is a check delivered on a player who is not aware of the impending hit, therefore unable to protect or defend himself, and contact is made on the back part of the body. When a player intentionally turns his body to create contact with his back, no penalty shall be assessed.

43.2 Minor Penalty - There is no provision for a minor penalty for checking from behind.

The actual penalty

42.1 Charging - A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result of distance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner. A “charge” may be the result of a check into the boards, into the goal frame or in open ice.

(i.e., by definition, hitting—beyond lightly bumping into someone—is charging)

42.3 Major Penalty – The Referee, at his discretion, may assess a major penalty, based on the degree of violence of the check, to a player guilty of charging an opponent (see 42.5).

(i.e., it was subjectively a big hit)

42.5 Game Misconduct Penalty - When a major penalty is imposed under this rule for a foul resulting in an injury to the face or head of an opponent, a game misconduct shall be imposed.

(punishing the result, not the action)

Posted by bleep bloop on 05/05/13 at 03:50 PM ET

John W.'s avatar

The fact is though, the league is generally not calling backwards or hip checks based on aftermath.  They are on hits facing forward and/or leading w/ the shoulder.  These players all supposedly are students of video.  It doesn’t take a pharmacist to tell you that you should proooobably stop hitting that one certain, specific way because the league’s difference reactiopns ot them are abundantly clear.

Posted by Primis on 05/05/13 at 03:49 PM ET

Agreed.

Posted by John W. from a bubble wrap cocoon on 05/05/13 at 03:57 PM ET

DAN M's avatar

1 game for Abdelkader. My prediction. Anyone disagree?

Posted by DAN M on 05/05/13 at 04:12 PM ET

cainer4wingsglory's avatar

Even as a biased Wings fan, that was definitely a charge. I’m not going to jump into the hitting battle going on here, but it seemed like Abby took a pretty straightforward line and Lydman was just caught looking the wrong way (is that blindside hit or just a D being unaware of his surroundings?). What I take issue with the most though is how terribly irresponsible it was of the refs give Abby 5 and a game. Neither ref called it initially (only in response to the injury really) so it seems they weren’t completely sure about it. So why not just 2 mins and let the league sort it out? Five and a game totally swung that game and I’d rather the teams on the ice sort it out for themselves.

What’s done is done, bring on game 4!

Posted by cainer4wingsglory on 05/05/13 at 04:21 PM ET

Primis's avatar

1 game for Abdelkader. My prediction. Anyone disagree?

Posted by DAN M on 05/05/13 at 04:12 PM ET

2.  The distance he went to make the hit is going to play into the decision and cost him an extra game.

The hit itself has been talked a lot about here, but elsewhere they’re almost talking more about him coming across the ice to make it.

Posted by Primis on 05/05/13 at 04:22 PM ET

w2j2's avatar

I think the NHL should become like Big Time Wrestling…

All the hits are fake, but everybody goes flying.
Helmets & equipment go flying “yard sale!”.
Everybody lays dead on the ice.  Lots of fake blood.
Benches empty.
The EMTs come in & make a big show of carting everybody off.
Women are crying, children shreaking for their daddies.
Then you need Shanahan to immediately appear on the big overhead screen, with horns sounding &  trumpets blaring.
He gives penalties & suspensions like God on judgement day.

After the game, both teams go out together for a few pops.
2 days later, they do it again.  It makes great TV.

“Slapshot” was before its time.

  cool cheese

Posted by w2j2 on 05/05/13 at 04:30 PM ET

Primis's avatar

Posted by w2j2 on 05/05/13 at 04:30 PM ET

I’m in, but only if we’re then allowed to use:  “Who is th… OHMIGAWD!  THAT’S NICK LIDTSROM’S MUSIC!  HE’S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE!!!” before he comes out onto the ice and shuts everything down and sends everyone home.

Posted by Primis on 05/05/13 at 05:04 PM ET

DAN M's avatar

That’s done is done, bring on game 4!

Posted by cainer4wingsglory on 05/05/13 at 04:21 PM ET

What do u mean mr lahey???? - randy.

Lmao!!!

Posted by DAN M on 05/05/13 at 05:06 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

you want to see how to throw legal hits, and tons of them, and play physical without crossing the line?  watch the 3rd period of the Minnesota/Chicago game.

Minny has been destroying Chicago physically.  hits are 24-6 after two periods.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 05/05/13 at 05:09 PM ET

DAN M's avatar

Hate the Hawks probably more than I’ve hated any team in the history of teams. The Chicago Bailed outs as I’ve been calling them.

Posted by DAN M on 05/05/13 at 05:12 PM ET

DAN M's avatar

Enjoy your last few days employed as an NHL coach Mike Yeo. Btw I’ve changed my mind. I think they’ll say abby already paid for his “sins”. Therefore no suspension. Book it!

Posted by DAN M on 05/05/13 at 05:55 PM ET

Hockeytown Wax's avatar

I’m confused.

For years, many of us have been complaining that the Red Wings aren’t physical enough ... they don’t hit anything.

Someone other than Kronwall throws an awesome open ice bodycheck and he might get suspended for it ??

Shit like this has been happening to the Red Wings for years with no repercussions ... Zetterberg gets his face rammed into the dasher in last years playoffs ... no penalty let alone suspension.  Stuart gets his jaw broken by a flying elbow ... no penalty let alone suspension.

Now ... because Abby hits & hurst someone, the officals have to have a 2 minute pow-wow to make up a bullshit penalty just because Lydman couldn’t stand up after a clean hit.

As I’ve said in other threads ... the “pussification” of the NHL continues.  If it continues at this pace, the game itself will be eliminated and the only thing we’ll see is a shootout competition.

Why the NHL thinks these new rules are necessary is beyond me.  If its fear of future lawsuits (see NFL) then I think they need to insert new fine print at the bottom of every players contract in order to protect the league from such legal actions.

If Bettman is just looking at the popularity (see TV ratings) and gross revenues and using that to justify the purpose new rules then just shame on him.  He’s a lawyer ... he should be smarter than that.

Skate .. pass .. shoot ... turn around ... skate ... pass ... shoot ... turn around .... skate .. pass .. shoot ... pretty boring eh ??

That’s the “New NHL”  and Queazy sounds frustrated because of it.  He can’t play effectively anymore because hitting was part of his style.

As for Garth ... either he’s being stupid on purpose just to rile us up or he really is stupid.  I’d like to think he’s just yanking our chains on purpose. There can’t be 2 Rush Limbaughs in this world can there ??

Posted by Hockeytown Wax from West Bloomfield, Mi. on 05/05/13 at 06:24 PM ET

DAN M's avatar

My friend mr spinning puck. Grizzly adams did have a beard….and stuarts guy did get suspended for the jaw break. Quite handedly in fact

Posted by DAN M on 05/05/13 at 06:25 PM ET

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The Malik Report is a destination for all things Red Wings-related. I offer biased, perhaps unprofessional-at-times and verbose coverage of my favorite team, their prospects and developmental affiliates. I've joined the Kukla's Korner family with five years of blogging under my belt, and I hope you'll find almost everything you need to follow your Red Wings at a place where all opinions are created equal and we're all friends, talking about hockey and the team we love to follow.