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Legislation to assist Ilitches in building follow-on rink may be scuttled in Lansing

Sigh. Via Paul, per the Detroit News's Chad Livengood, Michigan Governor Rick Snyder's decision to back a controversial "right-to-work" bill has officially yielded the end of bipartisan legislation in the Michigan legislature, and I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the Ilitches' attempts to build a follow-on rink to Joe Louis Arena may be hitting a legislative dead end as a retaliatory measure:

Minority Leader Rich Hammel said his caucus plans to vote "no" on a bill that would allow Olympia Development to tap nearly $13 million in downtown development authority tax funds for a proposed $650 million mixed-use district comprising a multipurpose events center along with retail, office and residential housing space.

"They will vote 'no' on the Ilitch project," said Hammel, D-Mount Morris Township. "From our perspective, I think it's important that we stand together united — and we will."

House Speaker Pro Tem John Walsh, the bill's sponsor, said Saturday he was trying to secure more Republican votes for House Bill 5463 over the weekend. Republicans control 64 of the House's 110 seats — a majority set to decline to 59 votes next year — in the lame duck session that leaders hope to end Thursday.

"The Dems have indicated they're going to vote no on everything and we're going to have to work hard to get (more Republican) votes," said Walsh, R-Livonia.

But it's a difficult sell with some conservative Republicans who oppose taxpayer support of private development, Walsh said.

"We have some people who simply believe that no public money should be used for any private sector project," he said.

Is there any sense to this? Why yes, there are senisble legislators in the State House and Senate...They're just very, very hard to find:

Rep. Tim Greimel, the House minority leader-elect, said the Ilitch legislation needs more vetting and should be delayed until early next year.

"It's a big deal when people are asked to devote taxpayer money to a private development," said Greimel, D-Auburn Hills. "For them to try to rush this through lame duck is every bit as unacceptable as any of the others policy issues they're trying to run through lame duck."

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My suggested change would be that if enough people ignore a commenter, their comments show up as ignored by default for all new and nonregistered readers.

I would rather each person manage what they choose to ignore. I may not agree with someone, but wouldn’t want it to be anyone’s choice but my own to ignore them.

Posted by hockey1919 from mid-atlantic on 12/11/12 at 12:00 PM ET

Avatar

That’s a lot of math for a made-up number. 

It’s a reasonable approximation of what is likely to happen, JJ.  It’s called a ‘forecast’.

If you wait to have an opinion on whether a thing should be done until after the thing is done and in motion and you see the results… well, that seems rather obviously stupid, right?

What that means is that a so-called “right to work” means that a person can elect to not pay for services that must be rendered onto that person, as required by federal law.

That’s actually not true.  A union isn’t required by law to represent non-union workers in the same facility.  That’s why there are ‘micro unions’ popping up, where small bits of pieces get together and organize a department while their union isn’t required to represent those not affiliated.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/11/12 at 12:25 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

It’s a reasonable approximation of what is likely to happen, JJ.  It’s called a ‘forecast’.

A ‘forecast’ you made up. Hence it’s a made-up number. We could both get out our thesauruses and spend the rest of the day finding intriguing ways to say the same thing, but that sounds very boring.

If you wait to have an opinion on whether a thing should be done until after the thing is done and in motion and you see the results… well, that seems rather obviously stupid, right?

I have opinions on the potential, I’m just not passing judgment until then.  I hope you are able to differentiate between the two.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/11/12 at 01:02 PM ET

Avatar

A ‘forecast’ you made up.

As opposed to the forecasts which are…?

I have opinions on the potential, I’m just not passing judgment until then.

Explain that.  Do you mean to say you’re not passing judgments on the potential until it’s no longer a potential but a reality?  At which point your judgments on the potentials are moot and meaningless?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/11/12 at 01:23 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

As opposed to the forecasts which are…?

So we agree!

Explain that.  Do you mean to say you’re not passing judgments on the potential until it’s no longer a potential but a reality?  At which point your judgments on the potentials are moot and meaningless?

I hate to break this to you, but both yours and my judgments on this situation are moot and meaningless.

What I meant to say is “I have opinions on the potential, I’m just not passing judgment until then.”

There really isn’t a simple way of saying that I’ll pass judgment on things that happen but not on things that don’t happen (insofar as them not happening is part of what actually does happen which is the thing on which I’m passing judgment.)

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/11/12 at 01:56 PM ET

Avatar

So we agree!

You are obviously pretending you don’t understand what a forecast is, and the purpose it might serve.

The vast majority of current and recent stadium deals involve significant public financing.  It is reasonable to presume that a new stadium will involve a significant amount of public financing.  It is reasonable to forecast that amount by looking at the amount other stadiums have received.  It is reasonable to use that amount to forecast the amount of revenue the project will need to generate in order to recoup the public funds employed in its construction.

I hate to break this to you, but both yours and my judgments on this situation are moot and meaningless.

What issue is that not true of?

There really isn’t a simple way of saying that I’ll pass judgment on things that happen but not on things that don’t happen (insofar as them not happening is part of what actually does happen which is the thing on which I’m passing judgment.)

Excellent.  So then your position is to wait until something happens, and then either whine about or extol its virtues.  Seriously, is that how you invest money?  Just throw it at a random thing and then years later you look at what happened and go ‘Hey, dang, that didn’t turn out well.  Oops’?

As opposed to, you know, looking at an issue and forming an opinion about how you think it might go in advance, and then working to move the issue in the direction it should go if it impacts you or you suspect it might impact you?

Which, coincidentally, is precisely how you’ve handled the lockout.  Rather than wait until everything is settled, you’ve assumed a pre-emptive position.

I’m curious why you’ve elected to do that in one case but not the other?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/11/12 at 03:34 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

You are obviously pretending you don’t understand what a forecast is, and the purpose it might serve.

Yawn.

Excellent.  So then your position is to wait until something happens, and then either whine about or extol its virtues.  Seriously, is that how you invest money?  Just throw it at a random thing and then years later you look at what happened and go ‘Hey, dang, that didn’t turn out well.  Oops’?

And here I thought you did understand the difference between sharing an opinion and a judgment.  That’s really too bad.  I guess I should be more worried about funding for schools.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/11/12 at 03:50 PM ET

Forlorn in VA's avatar

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 12/11/12 at 11:24 AM ET

I know I’m a little late in responding, but I think it works well as it is, unless you can wave your magic wand and have everyone stop responding to the person I’ve ignored wink

Posted by Forlorn in VA on 12/11/12 at 04:07 PM ET

OlderThanChelios's avatar

Would you rather have nothing, like a comment was never made by the ignored person?

Having nothing would be my personal preference. I’m not sure I understand why others think that would be confusing. I only block one poster (and one blogger) and if someone responds to the poster I’ve blocked, it’s pretty obvious from the mangled grammar being quoted who that person is. smile

But even if it stays the way it is now, the “Ignore” feature is a godsend. And it’s well worth logging in every day just to avoid seeing the 12,566th time “Corsi numbers” appear in a blog roll headline.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids, MI on 12/11/12 at 07:52 PM ET

redxblack's avatar

OTC - I might have the same two blocked!

Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 12/11/12 at 08:33 PM ET

OlderThanChelios's avatar

I might have the same two blocked!

Well, red, I have a feeling you and I are not alone. smile

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids, MI on 12/11/12 at 11:16 PM ET

MsRedWinger's avatar

Sigh…

Posted by MsRedWinger from Flori-duh on 12/12/12 at 08:59 AM ET

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Yawn.

So we agree!

And here I thought you did understand the difference between sharing an opinion and a judgment.

Dodge.

Looks like you are perfectly willing to go in on an opinion before all the facts are in in some circumstances, but poo-poo other people forecasting results in others.

Very inconsistent of you, JJ.

And that may be your weakest attempt at a semantic dodge yet.  You’re trying to find some kind of rhetorical wiggle room between someone’s ‘opinion’ and someone’s ‘judgement’?  Oof.

 

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/12/12 at 10:15 AM ET

MsRedWinger's avatar

Is there a drug out there for high T?

Posted by MsRedWinger from Flori-duh on 12/12/12 at 10:23 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Looks like you are perfectly willing to go in on an opinion before all the facts are in in some circumstances, but poo-poo other people forecasting results in others.

Gosh, you mean there are some things I’m more interested in forecasting than other things, and those things are things which actually affect me more as a hockey fan?

How inconsistent indeed.

It’s not a rhetorical wiggle room between opinion and judgment, it is definitive wiggle room; it’s enough room to do quite a bit of wiggling. You could call it stretching out on a sandy beach room and you still might be understating it.

You’re doing quite a lot of work to try to get your forecast validated here. It will get validated if Ilitch actually asks for the money you say he’s going to ask for. No matter how petulantly you want to stomp your feet about how seriously anybody should be taking you, I’m not validating you and no amount of ad hominem muckracking is going to change that.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/12/12 at 10:27 AM ET

rrasco's avatar

Does this mean it went through?  Or was that another aspect of it?

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=647561

Posted by rrasco from TEXAS on 12/12/12 at 12:51 PM ET

George Malik's avatar

It has to go through the senate, too.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 12/12/12 at 01:41 PM ET

SnLO's avatar

George, first sentence of the link:

The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday to help finance a downtown Detroit project that would include a new home for the NHL’s Detroit Red Wings.

Reads like it only need the Guvna to sign.

Posted by SnLO from beyond the M-1 on 12/12/12 at 02:22 PM ET

SnLO's avatar

I retract, the 2nd to last sentence reads:

The bill was approved on a 27-11 vote and returned to the House.

My bad. I needed read the whole thing before I injected a comment.

Posted by SnLO from beyond the M-1 on 12/12/12 at 02:26 PM ET

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The Malik Report is a destination for all things Red Wings-related. I offer biased, perhaps unprofessional-at-times and verbose coverage of my favorite team, their prospects and developmental affiliates. I've joined the Kukla's Korner family with five years of blogging under my belt, and I hope you'll find almost everything you need to follow your Red Wings at a place where all opinions are created equal and we're all friends, talking about hockey and the team we love to follow.