Kukla's Korner

The Malik Report

Babcock hopes the Red Wings will make some significant changes (and Worlds news)

Updated 4x with tons of free agency talk at 11:13 PM, enough that this is now an “evening report”: As news is rolling in via Twitter that Jiri Hudler and Jakub Kindl (per Matt Saler) will play at the World Championship for the Czech Republic, and that Jonathan Ericsson will join Henrik Zetterberg in playing for Sweden (per Matias Strozyk), Red Wings coach Mike Babcock spoke to the Associated Press’s Larry Lage about his hopes for the Wings in terms of off-season moves, and they’re simple (link from RedWingsFeed, which confirmed that Tomas Tatar’s headed to the Worlds to play for Slovakia):

“We have tons of money and if we can use our cap space to get high-end free agents, we have a shot to get right back on top,” Babcock said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press on Sunday, two days after Nashville eliminated Detroit. “If we’re fortunate in free agency, we won’t have to look at going in another direction.“The standard here has always been to chase the Stanley Cup, so as a coach, I’m hoping the free-agent market helps us continue to have those goals.”

The Red Wings led the NHL in points a couple months ago, but injuries to several players led to them slipping enough to be the fifth-seeded team in the Western Conference playoffs with a tough matchup against the fourth-seeded Predators.

“We never recovered,” Babcock said. “We never really got Darren Helm back and that hurt the balance we had on our third and fourth lines. Teams could check Z (Henrik Zetterberg) and Pav (Pavel Datsyuk) like crazy and get away with it.”

Detroit didn’t have enough depth up front and had too many miscues on the back end against the Predators.

“When you make defensive mistakes and you don’t score your problems are magnified,” Babcock said.

If you want to revisit Babcock’s comments regarding what Darren Helm’s injury meant to the Wings, MLive’s Brendan Savage will oblige you:

“I sure thought prior to our injuries we had a good group,” Babcock said. “We were playing hard and playing well. But I don’t think we ever scored again after we lost Darren Helm. We lost at a ton of guys at that time but Helmer gave us … we won a lot of games because our third line was flat out better and wore down the other team and kept coming. He’s a huge part of our team.”

Helm had barely returned to the lineup in Game 1 of the opening-round playoffs series vs. Nashville when he was sidelined again while throwing another check.

Helm was killing a penalty with a little more than six minutes left in the first period of Game 1 when he checked Nashville’s Alexander Radulov. As Radulov fell to the ice, his legs flew into the air and his skate caught Helm on the right arm, lacerating tendons that required surgery and ended his season. Helm played just six shifts for a total of 3:08 of ice time as Nashville posted a 3-2 victory in Game 1 before going on to win the series in five games.

“I didn’t think we had enough up front and it showed in our scoring,” Babcock said. “We thought we had Helmer and when we didn’t have him back we didn’t match up as good in that hole. I thought with energy and work ethic we masked that for a little while but when you lose 4-1 in a series, you can talk about all of the games being a one-goal game. To me, that’s not close; 4-1 is not close.”

Also; I’m not even touching the Red Wings “Eulogy” posted on Puck Daddy. It’s a gigantic cheap shot at the Wings and especially their fans.

Update: At the other end of the ice, the Windsor Star’s Bob Duff ofers an appropriately-titled entry describing how the “lack of offense” the Wings could produce doomed them:

Against a defence-first team such as the Predators, even a few goals might have been enough to get the job done. “If we could have scored two or three goals a game, we probably would have won the series,” Detroit forward Henrik Zetterberg said. “Maybe we didn’t do enough changes in the way we played. I think when you start losing games, you try to make changes, but maybe we didn’t do enough with them, or find a way to get quality chances, but in the playoffs, it’s tough to get those quality chances.”

Detroit scored a paltry eight goals in the five games, an average of 1.6 goals per game, but that wasn’t far off the level at which they’d put the puck in the net during the stretch drive of the regular season.

Over the final 17 regular-season games, Detroit scored 38 goals, for an average of 2.24 goals per game. The Wings scored two or fewer goals in 13 of those 17 games, and scored three or more times in just four games – seven versus Columbus, five versus Carolina, four against Washington and three on Los Angeles. Including playoffs, the Wings were held to two goals or less in 17 of their last 22 games. “That’s disappointing,” Wings captain Nicklas Lidstrom said.

Detroit coach Mike Babcock blamed the offensive letdown on a combination of the play of Nashville goalie Pekka Rinne, and the lack of finish among his forward group. “I though their goaltender was outstanding,” Babcock said. “I thought their depth up front was better than our depth up front, especially our third and fourth lines.

“I thought Zetterberg was fantastic in the series, but when you go through and look at our group of forwards, I didn’t think we had enough up front and it showed in our scoring, because I thought we had lots of pressure at times.”

If you care about what the Predators are saying today, the AP’s Teresa M. Walker will provide for your needs.

Update #2: From the QMI News Agency:

Neither Zach Parise nor Martin Brodeur had much of an interest in peering into a crystal ball Sunday afternoon.

During a conference call with reporters, the New Jersey Devils captain and goaltender were asked about their respective futures.

Parise is slated to be the best forward available on the free agency market this summer, and speculation already has the Detroit Red Wings at the head of the pack in line to sign the talented 27-year-old.

If the Devils lose Game 6 of their Eastern Conference quarterfinal against the Florida Panthers Tuesday, their season is over.

“It’s blocked out,” Parise said of what his hockey future might hold if the Devils are eliminated. “I don’t think about it and I really don’t want to talk about it.”

Update #3: This is turning into an “evening report,” and that’s fine by me—as it turns out, the Wings won’t clean their lockers out until Tuesday, so we’ve got time to burn here, and there’s no point in saving stuff for “overnight reports.”  If you want to “go big or go home” in terms of summertime moves, Fox Sports Detroit’s Art Regner agrees with you...

After scoring a grand total of nine goals in five games against Nashville, expect the Wings to offer Parise an open checkbook. Suter, along with Nik Kronwall, will ultimately be Lidstrom’s replacement. He’s an all-around talent that logs a lot of ice time and doesn’t shy away from the rough stuff. Like Parise, Suter would thrive playing in the Wings’ system and would be a great mentor for top prospect Brendan Smith. 

Speculation is that Suter might stay in Nashville if the Predators go far in the playoffs. He’s close with defensive partner Shea Weber and could give the Predators a hometown discount to keep their core group together. On the flip side, sources have indicated that Suter’s best friend in all of hockey is Parise. They have been teammates on several US national teams, beginning in 2001-02, when they were members of the World Junior under-18 team. The same sources have also indicated that Suter and Parise developed a tight bond during the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, and that Suter was told by the NHLPA that he must become a free agent on July 1, regardless of any intentions to re-sign with the Predators.

It’s a bit tricky trying to piece together what Suter will ultimately decide to do. There are dozens of stories circulating about his future.  If Parise, does sign with the Wings, perhaps Suter takes his lead and also heads to Detroit.
...
Don’t be surprise if the Wings shop around a few of their core players. Valtteri Filppula and Johan Franzen are at the top of the list because they’re the only two core forwards the Wings would receive anything of value for in a trade. Jiri Hudler is gone if he gets any substantial offer when he becomes a free agent. 

If Detroit adds Suter, Parise, trades for another veteran scoring forward (Jarome Iginla?) and acquires one or two big bodies to fill out its third and fourth lines, it will certainly maintain its status as an elite franchise.

But the Windsor Star’s Dave Waddell, who suggests that the Wings are at the kind of, “We could very well find ourselves contending for a Cup again if only we make the right changes” crossroads they were after losing to the Kings in the first round in 2001, offers some more realistic potential changes:

Whether Lidstrom packs it in now or next season, the Wings have two glaring needs. Detroit has to find a goal scorer and someone to help fill the vacuum left by Lidstrom’s eventual departure.  After the difficulty scoring goals in the past two playoffs, the Wings will certainly go hard after New Jersey’s Zach Parise.  Other potential forwards who could be free agents are Washington’s Alex Semin, Ryan Smyth, Shane Doan and Teemu Selanne, but it would seem unlikely the final three would leave their longtime homes in Edmonton, Phoenix and Anaheim, respectively Beyond that you have Calgary’s Olli Jokinen, Florida’s Mikael Samuelsson and Philadelphia’s Jaromir Jagr.

Among defenceman, Nashville’s Ryan Suter is clearly the potential prize catch. Other defenders scheduled to enter the market are Ottawa’s Filip Kuba, Florida’s Jason Garrison, Washington’s Dennis Wideman, St. Louis’s Barrett Jackman, Dallas’ Sheldon Souray and Phoenix’s Michal Rozsival.

However, the key to this summer’s free-agent market are Parise and Suter. If they don’t re-sign with their respective teams, it wouldn’t be a shock to see them both land on the same team. The two are very tight friends and it’s well known in league circles they’d love to play together.  Parise was given the third degree when the Devils visited Detroit late in the regular season and was effusive in his admiration for how the Wings play. 

“I think they (Detroit) play the right way,” Parise said. “They play hard. The puck possession is great.  They play a great style of hockey.”  He also stated Datsyuk was “his most favourite player to watch.” 

At the NHL All-Star Game in January, Parise also quizzed Datsyuk thoroughly on the Detroit organization.
...
The Wings may also be able to get involved in what is expected to be a very active trade market at the NHL draft in June in finding a forward. Columbus’s Rick Nash and Calgary’s Jarome Iginla could well be dealt at that time.  While there’s no chance Columbus would trade Rick Nash to a Central Division rival, the dominoes falling in such a deal might shake loose some other players.

The third area of improvement needing attention involves adding more size and sand paper to the lineup. The Montreal Canadiens’ Travis Moen, whom the Wings inquired about several times the trade deadline, would fill that need nicely and he’s also less than 30 years of age.

Depending on the state of Joey MacDonald’s sore back, the Wings might also have to add a backup netminder.  There are plenty of those available including Florida’s Scott Clemmensen, the New York Rangers’ Marty Biron, Winnipeg’s Chris Mason, Minnesota’s Josh Harding and Columbus’s Curtis Sanford.

I’ll give you a topic: consider the above suggestions while understanding that Franzen, Filppula, Todd Bertuzzi, Danny Cleary, Kyle Quincey and Jonathan Ericsson aren’t going anywhere. Discuss.

Update #4: Via RedWingsFeed again, here’s USA Today’s Kevin Allen’s take on what the Wings need to do:

Red Wings: They are expected to be among the most active participaints in the free agent and trade markets. They will be looking for a premium forward and defenseman. They will have the salary-cap space to go after Zach Parise and Ryan Suter, who will be unrestricted free agents.

The Red Wings first will have to find out whether defenseman Nicklas Lidstrom, 41, will return. He probably will decide in three or four weeks.

The Red Wings also are expected to lose Brad Stuart because he wants to play on the West Coast to be closer to his family. Tomas Holmstrom and Jiri Hudler are also unrestricted free agents.

Holmstrom is Lidstrom’s closest friend on the team. If Lidstrom returns, Holmstrom probably would also be back. The Red Wings will look to improve their scoring and find a No. 2 goalie. Expect Brendan Smith to play regularly on Detroit’s defense. He’s a Jack Johnson-style defenseman.

I think that the Wings do indeed want to add a back-up with a little more reliability than MacDonald can provide, and that’s going to be a very interesting subplot this summer.

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Comments

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w2j2's avatar

Bring Suter and Parise to Detroit!
Sounds like a plan!

If Jimmy D could get Fedorov out of the Soviet Union, he should be able to get Nash out of Columbus!

Travis Moen would be a great addition…the kind of guy Babcock likes.

I think the Wings should avoid all the old guys, including Iginla, Smyth, Doan, Selanne, Jagr.

Spend the Cap on Quality, not quantity.

Trades at the NHL draft…that could be interesting!

Posted by w2j2 on 04/23/12 at 01:02 AM ET

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I kinda want Garrison over Quincey. Guy has a cannon. Not sure how good he is overall though.

Posted by Giberson from Windsor on 04/23/12 at 01:07 AM ET

w2j2's avatar

If you think the Wings & their fans feel rotten about being eliminated in round 1, how do you think Vancouver & their fans feel about losing to #8 Los Angeles?

Posted by w2j2 on 04/23/12 at 01:15 AM ET

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Quincy wasn’t nearly as bad as it’s become fashionable to say around here. With a training camp and a preseason I expect to see his play improve markedly as he will be acclimated fully back to the Wings system.

Posted by moocat on 04/23/12 at 01:26 AM ET

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Go Panthers Go!!!

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 01:34 AM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

Regner suggested Jarome Iginla?!

LMFAO

methinks Regner doesn’t realize a few things.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 01:40 AM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

Waddell sure makes it sound like Parise already knows where he wants to be.

who in their right mind WOULDN’T want to play with Datsyuk?

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 01:45 AM ET

Chet's avatar

Waddell sure makes it sound like Parise already knows where he wants to be.

who in their right mind WOULDN’T want to play with Datsyuk?

hope you’re right.

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 04/23/12 at 01:58 AM ET

redxblack's avatar

Waddell is getting my hopes up.

Please do not resign Sammuelson! I finally finished cursing his name from when he was here last. Currently, I am cursing Quincey.

Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 04/23/12 at 02:13 AM ET

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I agree with moocat on Quincey. Just because he was here before doesn’t make automatic chemistry. I think Quincey will be just fine and will be the top 4.  Quincey is a good young d-man and will be worth that 1st round pick.

Posted by T on 04/23/12 at 02:19 AM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

I think people expected too much of Quincey right out of the gate.  it takes time to mesh with a new team, especially on defense…and especially in the playoffs.  he made some mistakes, but he should be able to tidy those up in the offseason and training camp, and should be a solid dman for the Wings.

I actually don’t think, even if Lidstrom retires, that the Wings need to do anything on defense.  they should spend their money on offense.

in the series against Nashville, even with the enormous mental mistakes they made, they only allowed 3 goals a game.  problem was, they couldn’t score 3.

note: Stuart was on the ice for 9 (I think) of Nashville’s 13 goals.  that tells me he mentally checked out.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 02:22 AM ET

babymachine's avatar

Interesting twist to the Suter and Parise story. Best of friends, you say?

Landing them both would be a dream come true.

As far as backup goalies go, maybe we can convince Vokoun to ride the for a cool mil? wink

Posted by babymachine from Portland, Oregon by way of Macomb, Michigan on 04/23/12 at 03:29 AM ET

babymachine's avatar

*pine

Posted by babymachine from Portland, Oregon by way of Macomb, Michigan on 04/23/12 at 03:30 AM ET

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Does significant changes include the following players making the Wings next year:

Brendan Smith,
Gustav Nyquist,
and Tomas Tatar (besides Jan Mursak being healthy)

Nash is not coming to Detroit, either Parise or Semin is what I am guessing.

Posted by dca from in Mich on 04/23/12 at 04:07 AM ET

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I still say that if Nick is gone then his “replacement” will come via a trade. The free agent market for d-men is pretty pitiful, and if Suter resigns with the cousin-fu*kers or elsewhere then it’s on Holland to earn his paycheck. Of course if Nick stays then, conceivably, our d corps could basically be set with Lids, White, Kronwall, Quincey, Big E and (please) Smith or Kindl. You can always find a veteran depth guy to help push Smith/Kindl and compete for the 6th spot. The bitch of it will be if Nick leaves and Holland only goes after that veteran depth guy to help fill out the back end.

..Franzen, Filppula, Todd Bertuzzi, Danny Cleary, Kyle Quincey and Jonathan Ericsson aren’t going anywhere.

If some team was seriously interested in the likes of Franzen or Fil then Holland owes it to his team to listen…or actively shop them around. This utter nonsense about Franzen and getting him to change his style some, or his still as of yet untapped potential or pushing him a bit harder to compete….stop it. Stop it. He is what he is. 32 year old dead weight. He plays when he feels like it and that apparently is about 2-3 weeks out of the season. Fu*k the ‘08 playoffs. That was FOUR YEARS AGO. Ohhh he lit up the Avs…how would we have gutted out a victory in that series with him??  I have to believe that there are several teams that would have interest in him despite his contract length (and in spite of my glowing analysis of him). The hit isn’t that bad. I still say if Chicago could move Campbell and that contract then anything is possible. I do like Filppula. I want to really like him and probably would if he were back on the 3rd line. I just don’t think it’s particularly advantageous to make any player not named Datsyuk or Zetterberg off limits.

Posted by godblender on 04/23/12 at 04:21 AM ET

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We have tons of money and if we can use our cap space to get high-end free agents, we have a shot to get right back on top,” Babcock said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press on Sunday, two days after Nashville eliminated Detroit. “If we’re fortunate in free agency, we won’t have to look at going in another direction.“The standard here has always been to chase the Stanley Cup, so as a coach, I’m hoping the free-agent market helps us continue to have those goals.”

Are you listening, Kenny?

Posted by godblender on 04/23/12 at 04:22 AM ET

Michiru Kaioh's avatar

Franzen should go. For all the reasons mentioned recently above, even though I doubt he will I love Filppula, and I hope he stays. I think he’s a great second line winger, and he’s an elite skater with defensive skill and playmaking potential on offense. Great great guy to have on a second line.

I’d like to see Bertuzzi, Franzen, and Cleary all be replaced. Emmerton too, frankly, because even though he showed some flashes during the season and playoffs, I just don’t think he’s top six forward potential, and I don’t see him as an effective third or fourth liner. He has no great skill…not an elite skater like a helm, not a big guy like Abdelkader, isn’t overly physical. And one thing I think is really overlooked is that we need more right-handed shots in the lineup.

I can’t tell you how many passes through the slot I found myself lamenting because “if that guy had a right handed shot, it was a goal”. We just don’t have any.

Bring up Nyquist to replace one of those three forwards, Mursak in for Emmerton, Smith takes Stuart’s spot, and then add a couple forwards, at least one elite goal scorer…Parise, Semin, someone with a shoot first mentality.

Posted by Michiru Kaioh on 04/23/12 at 05:04 AM ET

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Would Franzen and/or Filppula for a top 5 2012 draft pick be out of the question?

Posted by Hank Hill from Arlen, Texas on 04/23/12 at 06:42 AM ET

NIVO's avatar

Would Franzen and/or Filppula for a top 5 2012 draft pick be out of the question?

If you do this you are eliminating 2 current starting roster players. So with that said, is your new draft pick in a starting roster spot on day 1? Highly doubtful.

Posted by NIVO from underpants gnome village on 04/23/12 at 07:47 AM ET

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Posted by NIVO on 04/23/12 at 05:47 AM ET

No, you’re freeing up cap space and roster spots.  The cap space can be used to fill the roster spots.

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 09:34 AM ET

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Expect Brendan Smith to play regularly on Detroit’s defense. He’s a Jack Johnson-style defenseman.

I don’t really expect that at all, unless they trade Ericsson, because if they keep Ericsson it’s not in Smith’s best interest to have him in Detroit as the 7th d-man.  He’d be much better off playing huge minutes in Grand Rapids.  And no, I don’t see him as being the replacement for Brad Stuart.

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 10:57 AM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

No, you’re freeing up cap space and roster spots.  The cap space can be used to fill the roster spots.

you don’t trade players like that for draft picks.  you trade them for players.

this is because with your plan, the players to replace them must be gotten through free agency.  the Wings already have plenty of money to do that, and there aren’t enough available FAs as it stands.

use the existing money to sign a couple FAs, and trade for any other players they want/can.

I don’t understand why anyone would want to see Filpulla go.  he is a dynamic, talented, hard working forward who is excellent on the back check.  he is the quintessential Red Wing 5th/6th forward.

and Cleary?!  you guys want to get rid of CLEARY?!  one of the big things the team seemed to lack this year is heart.  Cleary = heart coming out his ears.  no way he isn’t a Wing for years to come.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 01:08 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

He’d be much better off playing huge minutes in Grand Rapids.

what is he going to gain in that league that he hasn’t already gained?

it’s time to bring him up to the big club and let him start getting his big game rhythm and skills, and chemistry with the team.

gone are the days of leaving players in GR until they’re 25.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 01:10 PM ET

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what is he going to gain in that league that he hasn’t already gained?

More than he’d gain competing for the #7 spot.

you don’t trade players like that for draft picks.  you trade them for players.

No, you trade them for what you can get because you don’t want to put up with a guy who stopped giving a damn once he started getting a big paycheck.

What’s more, with guys like Nyquist, Andersson and Tatar, you can trade Franzen simply to free up a roster spot to give a hungry young kid a chance.  Also, as it is, if Lidstrom re-signs then there’s not nearly as much cap space to go after free agents as you might think there is and trading Franzen frees up more space for that.

If they had a chance to sign both Parise and Suter but couldn’t because they didn’t have enough cap space to fill out their roster, that’s problematic.

and Cleary?!  you guys want to get rid of CLEARY?!  one of the big things the team seemed to lack this year is heart.  Cleary = heart coming out his ears.  no way he isn’t a Wing for years to come.

He can’t walk.  He can barely skate anymore.  And worse than that, when someone on the top six falters, THIS is the guy they put on the first line?  Heart is great, but how about getting a guy with heart who is able-bodied?

Wow, what a concept!

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 01:38 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

He can’t walk.  He can barely skate anymore. 

that’s funny, he was skating really well against Nashville.  better than some of the healthy players.

you do know he has a knee problem that they have to fix, right?

unless there is something I don’t know, they will get his knee situation straightened out in the offseason and he’ll be fine after that.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 01:48 PM ET

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you do know he has a knee problem that they have to fix, right?

You’re right, and as everyone knows, it’s a good thing when a professional athlete has to have surgery on his knees, and they always return and their knees are better than healthy natural knees.  It’s also a great thing when a guy has to have his knee drained on a near-weekly basis and when he has cortisone shots and indicates that they don’t help.  You know that’s pretty f*cking bad, right?

And God knows that, as a Red Wings fan, you wouldn’t ever have heard of anyone retiring because of deteriorated knees.

Rafaski certainly didn’t cite knee issues (as well as back issues) when he retired,

And then there was that one guy who was a long-time captain, can’t think of his name, who was in very much the same boat as Cleary is now in when he retired.  And five years after retirement he can’t skate at all, to the point where he’s not even going to be doing a Bernie Parent at the next Winter Classic alumni game.

But no, hey, it’s a 100% guarantee that Dan Cleary is going to be 100% healthy, probably better than he ever has been, from having his knees cut open and surgically repaired.

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 02:12 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

yeah, you’re right.  Yzerman could barely skate after his knee surgery.

rolleyes

you should really pay attention to what Cleary’s actual problem is - torn cartilage.  not a serious problem at all.  if it were, doctors wouldn’t have let him play on it.

it’s not like he totally blew out his knee.  you know, like Yzerman did early in his career.  he was pretty good after that, now, wasn’t he?

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 02:25 PM ET

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Are you really citing Yzerman in your defense? So you would rather have had the Wings gotten rid of Yzerman at the first sign of having knee issues??? Rafalski doesn’t help defend your stance either. Both Yzerman and Rafalski retired at their own will - your stance is that the Wings should get rid of Cleary.

The arguement of the injury is irrelevant anyways, it’s about the potential and Detroit’s assessing the risk. Getting back a healthy Cleary is worth taking the risk of keeping him on the roster - remember, he only has a year left on his contract. We bring him back, if he’s healthy and effective, great, if not, we only owe him one year of salary. Plus who are we going to deal him to? If the Wings aren’t willing to gamble on his injury who else would?

Posted by chadster on 04/23/12 at 02:44 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

, from having his knees cut open and surgically repaired

that is not even close to an accurate statement.  first of all, it’s KNEE, not KNEES.

anyway, they don’t cut anything open any more.  it’s done arthroscopically.  do you know what that means?

the prognosis for this kind of knee problem is very, very good.  but you want to give up on him?  wow.  the prognosis for Yzerman after his osteotomy was NOT GOOD - there was even mention from one doctor that they usually do it on old people and it had never been done on an athlete before, so he might never play again.  then he came out and skated like he was 25 again.

you’re off the mark, Garth.  you’re more interested in defending your position than looking at facts, reality, and logic.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 02:54 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

by the way, Garth…Datsyuk had (arthroscopic)  knee surgery during the regular season.

should the Wings get rid of him?

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 03:02 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

here’s another one…

Bobby Orr injured his knee in his rookie season.  and again his second season, requiring surgery - and this was surgery circa 1968. he twisted his knee in the next season, too.  the season after that, he posted 120 points.

I guess Boston should have given up on him.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 03:07 PM ET

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Also, as it is, if Lidstrom re-signs then there’s not nearly as much cap space to go after free agents as you might think there is and trading Franzen frees up more space for that.

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 11:38 AM ET

Teams can exceed the cap by 10% during the offseason. If they can manage to sign both, they can figure out how to clear cap space after the fact. There’s no sense in clearing room for players you may or may not even manage to sign.

Posted by RyanVM from Philly on 04/23/12 at 03:23 PM ET

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Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 01:02 PM ET

Are you really comparing a guy who missed 11 games for a surgery to a guy who is has played almost the entire season on a hurt knee, is going to have to take the entire summer to recover from surgery related to his chronic knee troubles going back an entire decade, has been taking anti-inflammatory injections all season and has regularly had to have his knee drained?

Good comparison.

anyway, they don’t cut anything open any more.  it’s done arthroscopically.  do you know what that means?

I’m curious what you think it means.  Just because there are smaller incisions doesn’t mean they aren’t cutting him and going into his body.

you’re more interested in defending your position than looking at facts, reality, and logic.

Yeah, you’re right.  I mean, it’s not like he’s had knee problems for OVER A F*CKING DECADE, dating back to the first knee surgery he had during his SECOND full year in the NHL.  It’s not like they’re saying it’s going to take the entire summer to recover and that they’re hoping he’ll be ready for camp.

Logically, factually and realistically he’s going to be better than he ever was, because that’s what happens when you have another surgery on a knee that has been problematic for over 10 years.

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 04:21 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

Are you really comparing a guy who missed 11 games for a surgery to a guy who is has played almost the entire season on a hurt knee, is going to have to take the entire summer to recover from surgery related to his chronic knee troubles going back an entire decade, has been taking anti-inflammatory injections all season and has regularly had to have his knee drained?

the draining is because of cysts.  not injury.

the injury is minor, which is why they let him play on it.

multiple reports have said he’ll have plenty of time to recover for training camp…so how is that “take the entire summer to recover?”

you are saying things that don’t fit the facts, ignoring the (lack of) seriousness of the surgery, and simply defending your point at all costs.

as for “good comparison” when are you going to address the comparisons to Yzerman and Orr?

I’m curious what you think it means.  Just because there are smaller incisions doesn’t mean they aren’t cutting him and going into his body.

it means much less recovery time, much less trauma from the surgery, a much better prognosis.

first knee surgery he had during his SECOND full year in the NHL

and how did he play after that surgery?  should the Wings have dumped him then?

you just destroyed your own argument.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 04:35 PM ET

Avatar

Posted by RyanVM from Philly on 04/23/12 at 01:23 PM ET

True, but if you’re over the cap and trying to get under it you’re going to get less than what the player is worth because teams will know that you’re trying to shed salary.

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 04:50 PM ET

TheFreak's avatar

Wonder if Babcock was also thinking of his assistant coaches when making his comments about how to fix the team and/or what went wrong.

Posted by TheFreak on 04/23/12 at 05:26 PM ET

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so how is that “take the entire summer to recover?”

Because I’ve read articles saying that they hope he’ll be ready for training camp.  How is that NOT taking the summer to recover.

the injury is minor, which is why they let him play on it.

They let him play on it because they knew that if he had the surgery in mid-season there’s no way he would’ve ever been ready for the playoffs, and they knew that the injections would help the pain.

and how did he play after that surgery?

After the first surgery when he was still young and could recover much better?  Not all that well,actually.  A season after the surgery he was bought out by the Oilers.  Then he was signed by the Coyotes, waived after training camp and then called up because of injuries.  Then after the lockout he couldn’t find anyone who would sign him, so he accepted a training camp invite from the Red Wings.

So, realistically, he didn’t fully recover as a hockey player and begin to fulfill his pre-injury potential for about four years after his first surgery.

But yeah, I’m sure he’ll be better after this surgery, following 10 years of knee issues, than he was before his first surgery. 

Thanks.

you just destroyed your own argument.

Well then it’s a good thing you decided to reply and build my argument up better than it was before.  Thanks for that.

You do realize that when a player has multiple knee issues and has to have more than one surgery and is getting older and plays a style that results in a lot of wear and tear on his body, that’s not a good thing in the long run, right?

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 09:39 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players/playerpage/19647/daniel-cleary

will allow plenty of time for Cleary to rehab and recover in preparation for the start of training camp in the fall.

“They let him play on it because they knew that if he had the surgery in mid-season there’s no way he would’ve ever been ready for the playoffs, and they knew that the injections would help the pain.”

AND they knew playing on it wouldn’t make it any worse, just like what happened with Yzerman.

do you think Yzerman should have been dumped when he had knee surgery in 2002 after more than a decade of knee problems?

the bottom line is this…Cleary skated better than some healthy players in this year’s playoffs.  it surprised a lot of people.  considering surgery will make his knee BETTER, what logic or evidence is there that he will not be able to continue to play at a high level?  NONE.

Cleary’s trouble breaking into the NHL with Edmonton and Phoenix had nothing to do with his ability to skate, with injuries, or with his knee.  it had to do with the type of player he was, that he wasn’t physical enough…and after he hooked up with Chris Chelios’ trainer and transitioned into a more physical gritty player, the Wings picked him up and he has been fantastic.

to just say “dump him” instead of seeing how the surgery goes (which by all accounts is a near lock to go quite well and see him 100% and ready for training camp) and how he plays (which was better than most in this year’s playoffs on a bumb knee) makes no sense.

anyway, I’m done.  defend your position.  luckily people with more common sense and an understanding of the physical issues don’t agree with you.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/23/12 at 10:02 PM ET

Avatar

do you think Yzerman should have been dumped when he had knee surgery in 2002 after more than a decade of knee problems?

No, because Yzerman is one of the best players to ever wear the Winged Wheel, a born leader and the captain of the team, not a reclamation project who was supposed to be a superstar and settled for being a pretty good but very replaceable third liner.

Cleary’s trouble breaking into the NHL with Edmonton and Phoenix had nothing to do with his ability to skate, with injuries, or with his knee.

I’m happy for you that you can claim this even though there is not evidence to support your claims or any basis in reality.

to just say “dump him”

1) I didn’t say dump him
2) the basis of what I said is that Detroit has way too many bottom-six forwards, and some of them (Bertuzzi & Cleary to be specific) are being forced into top-six roles that they don’t belong in.  On top of that, Detroit has Miller, Abdelkader and Helm (and Eaves if he can recover from his concusion) who are the same type of player as Cleary is, except they are all much younger and not using broken bodies.  I don’t dislike Cleary, but if it’s Cleary versus any of the above listed younger players then I’m sorry, but I choose the younger, healthy version.

I’m sorry, but I’m tired of having 8 or 9 bottom-six forwards and four or five top-sox forwards, and choosing Cleary over any of Helm, Abdelkader, Miller or a healthy Eaves is not a choice.

Posted by Garth on 04/23/12 at 11:32 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

No, because Yzerman is one of the best players to ever wear the Winged Wheel, a born leader and the captain of the team, not a reclamation project who was supposed to be a superstar and settled for being a pretty good but very replaceable third liner.

the bottom line is he was still able to play at a very high level, like many players who have various surgeries.  “he had surgery, dump him” defies logic and reality.

Cleary’s trouble breaking into the NHL with Edmonton and Phoenix had nothing to do with his ability to skate, with injuries, or with his knee.

I’m happy for you that you can claim this even though there is not evidence to support your claims or any basis in reality.

really?

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2009/05/19/the-long-slow-education-of-dan-cleary-detroit-red-wings-stalwart/

I have no problem with Cleary playing bottom six minutes, and rotating with younger players.  but I say because he is one of the heart-and-soul-give-it-all-you’ve-got players on the team adds much to his value.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/24/12 at 12:36 AM ET

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The Malik Report is a destination for all things Red Wings-related. I offer biased, perhaps unprofessional-at-times and verbose coverage of my favorite team, their prospects and developmental affiliates. I've joined the Kukla's Korner family with five years of blogging under my belt, and I hope you'll find almost everything you need to follow your Red Wings at a place where all opinions are created equal and we're all friends, talking about hockey and the team we love to follow.