Kukla's Korner

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NHL Award Voting Results

The NHL Awards were today.  As always it takes a bit of work to find the entire award voting results.  For the most part I have found it.  Of the awards I worry about, I am unable to find results for the Masterton Trophy voting.  I also cannot find award voting for the Pearson, Foundation Award and GM of the Year, but they are awards I am less interested in.  The Pearson Award is essentially another MVP but voted on by the players and not the hockey writers (I am award that people try to make a false distinction between most outstanding and MVP - if anyone thinks that a million dollar diamond is not the most valuable if it is surrounded by other hundred thousand dollar diamonds when another diamond that is worth $700 k is all alone with some gravel you can take it to the comments).  The Foundation Award depends on charitable giving and other similar factors which I am in no place to evaluate by watching games.  The GM of the Year is an award I disagree with in principle because being a good GM requires successfully orchestrating a multi-year plan and that cannot be evaluated meaningfully in one season.

Paul found the First and Second All Star team voting and it is here.  The voting for the other awards is below the break followed by my comments on the thing.

2010-2011 Hart Trophy Voting

Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)
1. Corey Perry, ANA 1,043 (67-47-8-1-1)
2. Daniel Sedin, VAN 960 (51-56-9-4-1)
3. Martin St. Louis, T.B. 332 (1-6-36-28-16)
4. Pekka Rinne, NSH 175 (1-2-17-17-15)
5. Tim Thomas, BOS 171 (1-5-15-12-15)
6. Jonathan Toews, CHI 107 (0-2-7-15-13)
7. Carey Price, MTL 90 (2-0-10-4-8)
8. Ryan Kesler, VAN 69 (1-3-4-5-3)
9. Marc-Andre Fleury, PIT 58 (1-3-1-6-4)
10. Henrik Sedin, VAN 57 (0-1-3-8-11)
11. Steven Stamkos, T.B. 41 (0-0-2-9-4)
12. Jarome Iginla, CGY 31 (0-1-1-4-7)
13. Zdeno Chara, BOS 23 (0-0-2-4-1)
14. Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 19 (0-0-1-2-8)
15. Alex Ovechkin, WSH 19 (0-0-0-4-7)
16. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 16 (0-0-2-1-3)
17. Roberto Luongo, VAN 15 (1-0-1-0-0)
18. Ilya Bryzgalov, PHX 13 (0-0-2-0-3)
19. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 11 (0-0-2-0-1)
20. Sidney Crosby, PIT 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Ryan Getzlaf, ANA 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Kris Letang, PIT 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
23. Chris Pronger, PHI 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Lubomir Visnovsky, ANA 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
25. Shea Weber, NSH 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
26. Patrick Marleau, S.J. 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Ryan Miller, BUF 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Keith Yandle, PHX 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

2010-2011 Norris Trophy Voting

Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)
1. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 736
(35-23-34-15-10)
2. Shea Weber, NSH 727 (32-41-14-14-8)
3. Zdeno Chara, BOS 688 (33-24-24-20-10)
4. Lubomir Visnovsky, ANA 573
(20-20-26-28-19)
5. Keith Yandle, PHX 312 (5-10-17-25-32)
6. Kris Letang, PIT 144 (2-3-9-12-22)
7. Dustin Byfuglien, ATL 33 (0-2-1-3-5)
8. Christian Ehrhoff, VAN 28 (0-0-1-6-5)
9. Duncan Keith, CHI 24 (0-1-1-3-3)
10. Matt Carle, PHI 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
Drew Doughty, L.A. 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
Chris Pronger, PHI 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
13. Toni Lydman, ANA 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
14. Dan Boyle, S.J. 3 (0-0-0-0-3)
15. Ryan Suter, NSH 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
16. Brian Campbell, CHI 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dan Hamhuis, VAN 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Andrej Meszaros, PHI 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Tyler Myers, BUF 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Marc Staal, NYR 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

2010-2011 Vezina Trophy Voting

Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd)
1. Tim Thomas, BOS 104 (17-5-4)
2. Pekka Rinne, NSH 84 (6-17-3)
3. Roberto Luongo, VAN 33 (3-4-6)
4. Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 23 (3-1-5)
5. Carey Price, MTL 10 (1-0-5)
6. Ilya Bryzgalov, PHX 9 (0-2-3)
7. Cam Ward, CAR 4 (0-1-1)
8. Marc-Andre Fleury, PIT 1 (0-0-1)
Antti Niemi, S.J. 1 (0-0-1)
Jonathan Quick, L.A. 1 (0-0-1)

2010-2011 Jack Adams Award Voting

Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd)
1. Dan Bylsma, PIT 196 (29-13-12)
2. Alain Vigneault, VAN 169 (19-23-5)
3. Barry Trotz, NSH 80 (8-9-13)
4. Guy Boucher, T.B. 54 (6-6-6)
5. Jacques Lemaire, N.J. 27 (3-2-6)
6. Bruce Boudreau, WSH 26 (2-3-7)
7. Dave Tippett, PHX 24 (1-4-7)
8. Mike Babcock, DET 14 (1-2-3)
9. John Tortorella, NYR 9 (1-1-1)
10. Claude Julien, BOS 6 (0-2-0)
11. Randy Carlyle, ANA 5 (0-1-2)
Peter Laviolette, PHI 5 (0-1-2)
13. Jacques Martin, MTL 4 (0-1-1)
Todd McLellan, S.J. 4 (0-1-1)
Lindy Ruff, BUF 4 (0-1-1)
16. Marc Crawford, DAL 2 (0-0-2)
17. Jack Capuano, NYI 1 (0-0-1)

2010-2011 Calder Trophy Voting

Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)
1. Jeff Skinner, CAR 1,055 (71-39-12-4-0)
2. Logan Couture, S.J. 908 (41-46-29-10-1)
3. Michael Grabner, NYI 497 (6-19-37-35-14)
4. Corey Crawford, CHI 336 (6-9-22-28-19)
5. John Carlson, WSH 188 (3-3-16-12-21)
6. P.K. Subban, MTL 155 (0-6-9-16-20)
7. Sergei Bobrovsky, PHI 51 (0-4-1-4-6)
8. Cam Fowler, ANA 27 (0-0-0-7-6)
9. Taylor Hall, EDM 22 (0-0-1-4-5)
10. Kevin Shattenkirk, STL 18 (0-0-0-3-9)
11. Tyler Ennis, BUF 16 (0-1-0-0-9)
12. Brad Marchand, BOS 12 (0-0-0-1-9)
13. Derek Stepan, NYR 6 (0-0-0-2-0)
14. Michal Neuvirth, WSH 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
15. Jordan Eberle, EDM 3 (0-0-0-0-3)
James Reimer, TOR 3 (0-0-0-0-3)
17. Michael Sauer, NYR 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

2010-2011 Lady Byng Trophy Voting

Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)
1. Martin St. Louis, T.B. 994 (70-33-10-4-1)
2. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 464 (22-15-20-10-9)
3. Loui Eriksson, DAL 347 (9-14-18-18-15)
4. Patrick Marleau, S.J. 241 (2-11-17-16-11)
5. Jonathan Toews, CHI 233 (4-11-12-17-5)
6. Teemu Selanne, ANA 163 (9-6-3-3-7)
7. Brad Richards, DAL 148 (0-6-13-10-11)
8. Daniel Sedin, VAN 141 (3-6-11-4-2)
9. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 112 (1-8-5-5-6)
10. Anze Kopitar, L.A. 57 (1-2-0-9-6)
11. Henrik Sedin, VAN 54 (0-4-1-5-6)
12. Patrik Elias, N.J. 42 (1-1-1-5-5)
13. Lubomir Visnovsky, ANA 38 (0-1-3-3-7)
14. Brian Campbell, CHI 37 (2-1-1-1-2)
15. Andrew Brunette, MIN 17 (1-0-0-2-1)
16. Patrice Bergeron, BOS 16 (1-0-0-2-0)
17. Jarome Iginla, CGY 12 (0-1-1-0-0)
18. Jason Pominville, BUF 12 (0-0-1-2-1)
19. Tomas Kaberle, BOS 11 (0-1-0-0-4)
20. Steven Stamkos, T.B. 10 (1-0-0-0-0)
21. Michael Grabner, NYI 9 (0-0-1-0-4)
22. Alex Pietrangelo, STL 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
James Reimer, TOR 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
24. Jeff Carter, PHI 8 (0-0-1-1-0)
Eric Staal, CAR 8 (0-0-1-1-0)
26. Niclas Bergfors, FLA 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Ryan Getzlaf, ANA 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Claude Giroux, PHI 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Patrick Kane, CHI 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
30. Milan Hejduk, COL 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
Duncan Keith, CHI 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
32. Ales Hemsky, EDM 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Joe Pavelski, S.J. 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Tomas Plekanec, MTL 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Marty Reasoner, FLA 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Derek Roy, BUF 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
37. Pierre-Marc Bouchard, MIN 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Paul Martin, PIT 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
39. Joe Corvo, CAR 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Phil Kessel, TOR 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Mike Modano, DET 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Dominic Moore, T.B. 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Frans Nielsen, NYI 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic, S.J. 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
46. Thomas Vanek, BUF 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Henrik Zetterberg, DET 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
48. David Booth, FLA 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dan Boyle, S.J. 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Matt Carle, PHI 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Matt Duchene, COL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Darren Helm, DET 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Saku Koivu, ANA 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Brooks Laich, WSH 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Trevor Lewis, L.A. 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Manny Malhotra, VAN 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Mason Raymond, VAN 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sergei Samsonov, FLA 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Rob Scuderi, L.A. 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Alex Tanguay, CGY 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Cam Ward, CAR 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

2010-2011 Frank Selke Trophy Voting

Pts. 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th
1. Ryan Kesler, VAN 1,179 (105-14-5-2-0)
2. Jonathan Toews, CHI 476 (5-36-24-15-9)
3. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 348 (4-22-22-12-8)
4. Patrice Bergeron, BOS 296 (3-18-21-9-8)
5. Manny Malhotra, VAN 229 (6-10-10-14-7)
6. Frans Nielsen, NYI 97 (0-4-8-6-11)
7. David Backes, STL 88 (1-2-6-9-7)
8. Mike Richards, PHI 83 (1-2-4-11-6)
9. Anze Kopitar, L.A. 55 (0-2-4-5-6)
10. Ryan Callahan, NYR 51 (0-1-5-5-4)
11. Brooks Laich, WSH 36 (0-1-2-4-7)
12. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 33 (0-2-2-2-3)
13. Tomas Plekanec, MTL 29 (0-1-1-3-8)
14. Claude Giroux, PHI 25 (1-0-1-3-1)
15. Jordan Staal, PIT 25 (0-2-2-0-1)
16. Brad Richards, DAL 15 (0-0-2-1-2)
17. Pascal Dupuis, PIT 14 (0-2-0-0-0)
18. Brandon Prust, NYR 14 (0-1-0-2-1)
19. Martin St. Louis, T.B. 12 (0-1-1-0-0)
20. Michael Grabner, NYI 11 (1-0-0-0-1)
21. Corey Perry, ANA 10 (0-1-0-1-0)
22. Vernon Fiddler, PHX 10 (0-0-0-3-1)
23. Henrik Sedin, VAN 9 (0-0-1-1-1)
24. Dave Bolland, CHI 9 (0-0-0-3-0)
25. Alex Burrows, VAN 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
Brad Marchand, BOS 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
Travis Zajac, N.J. 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
28. Jeff Carter, PHI 8 (0-0-1-1-0)
29. Darren Helm, DET 8 (0-0-1-0-3)
30. Joe Pavelski, S.J. 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
31. Brian Boyle, NYR 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Brian Gionta, MTL 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
33. Eric Staal, CAR 7 (0-0-1-0-2)
34. Paul Gaustad, BUF 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
Daniel Sedin, VAN 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
36. Ville Leino, PHI 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
37. Logan Couture, S.J. 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
Joe Thornton, S.J. 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
39. Loui Eriksson, DAL 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
40. Matt Cullen, MIN 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Martin Erat, NSH 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Boyd Gordon, WSH 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Martin Hanzal, PHX 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Zenon Konopka, NYI 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Lauri Korpikoski, PHX 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Milan Lucic, BOS 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Teemu Selanne, ANA 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Patrick Sharp, CHI 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Jerred Smithson, NSH 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
50. David Legwand, NSH 3 (0-0-0-0-3)
51. Craig Adams, PIT 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Dustin Brown, L.A. 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
53. Nicklas Backstrom, WSH 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Mike Fisher, NSH 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Ryan Getzlaf, ANA 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Jeff Halpern, MTL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Michal Handzus, L.A. 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Mikko Koivu, MIN 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Patrick Marleau, S.J. 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Brendan Morrison, CGY 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Brenden Morrow, DAL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Ryan O’Reilly, COL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Alex Steen, STL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

When the season completed, I wrote if I had an award ballot.  Had I voted, I would not have made any serious differences to the final results.  I would have made minor changes to the order of the finishers who were outside receiving nominations.

I would have moved Tim Thomas from fifth to fourth in the Hart Trophy voting with my first place vote, moving him past Pekka Rinne.  The fact that Thomas was not even nominated for the Hart Trophy when he set a record for saves percentage in an NHL season is a crime.  The fact that he was not even the top goalie in the voting is crazy.

I would have also moved Peter Laviolette from an 11th place tie with Randy Carlyle to a tenth place tie with Claude Julien with my third place vote.  While I feel Laviolette was a better coach this season than the voting indicates, this is a minor change.

When the award nominations were announced I gave I gave my thoughts on what would happen at the actual awards.  Here are my thoughts given the actual award winners.

Calder Trophy  Given the nominees, I am not surprised to see Jeff Skinner win.  I am very dismayed to see that John Carlson finished fifth in the voting.

Selke Trophy  I thought Ryan Kesler would win upon seeing the nominees.  I thought Jonathan Toews should have won.  He finished well back of Kesler in second place.  Manny Malhotra was a better Selke candidate from Vancouver.  He played in their toughest defensive situations.  It is nice to see that this year’s winner played on the penalty kill regularly, unlike Pavel Datsyuk who still managed a third place finish with only 56 games played.

Adams Trophy  Dan Bylsma’s win is not a surprise.  Barry Trotz was the best of the nominees and Mike Babcock is the best coach in the league.  This award rarely gets the best coach in the league.  It is the coach who overcomes an obstacle, in Bylsma’s case this is Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin’s injuries.  That is not the same thing as being the best coach.

Masterton Trophy  Of the nominees I picked Ray Emery.  I think it’s a shame that Kurtis Foster and Fernando Pisani were not nominated.  They were better candidates than those who were nominees but they didn’t get their team nominations Giving the award to Ian Laperriere, who didn’t play any games this season and likely never will play another NHL game is pretty ridiculous.

Lady Byng Trophy  I picked Martin St Louis to win and he did.  Here is one case where I agree with the media.

Norris Trophy  I picked Lubomir Visnovsky to win this and he finished fourth.  The top four nominees were all quite close and each received a good number of first place votes.  Of the nominees, I thought Zdeno Chara was most worthy, but he finished third.  I am not surprised Nicklas Lidstrom won, but it seems more like a lifetime achievement award than one he deserved based on this season alone.

Vezina Trophy  Tim Thomas won.  He was very deserving.  I think this was the most obvious award pick.

Hart Trophy  Corey Perry won.  He had the best stretch drive in the NHL but was not MVP over the whole season.  I strongly think Tim Thomas should have won, but he finished fifth.  Of the nominees I picked Daniel Sedin.

All Star Teams  Of the forwards, I would have put Steve Stamkos on the first team and Henrik Sedin on the second, but otherwise I agree with the choices.  On defence I would have made Lubomir Visnovsky and Zdeno Chara the first team.  They were the second team in the voting.  Nicklas Lidstrom of the first team and Kris Letang who finished sixth in voting were my second team.  I had Shea Weber fifth and think he was overrated by the voters.  The goaltending finished the way I thought it should.

When all is said and done, there are several people I thought should have won awards who were not nominated.  They are Tim Thomas (Hart), Lubomir Visnovsky (Norris), Kurtis Foster (Masterton), Mike Babcock (Adams) and John Carlson (Calder).  Among the award winners, there are two I think should not have been nominated.  They are Ian Laperriere (Masterton) and Dan Bylsma (Adams).  The only two awards I fully agree on the selections are Tim Thomas (Vezina) and Martin St Louis (Byng).  I will write pieces in the future discussing some of the more interesting discrepancies between my opinions and the award voting results.

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Comments

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Puck Daddy has the GM of the Year voting up.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 06/23/11 at 09:08 AM ET

NHLJeff's avatar

I strongly disagree that there is no difference between MVP and most outstanding player. MVP should go to the player whose team would be hurt the most had he not been on the team, while most outstanding should go to the player that played the best hockey overall. Considering the depth Vancouver has, if they’d lost Daniel Sedin to injury, they may have dropped in the standings a little (although not necessarily), but they still would have been a good, playoff team.  I agree with Thomas as the choice under my definition of MVP or possibly Fleury or Toews, and an argument could be made for St. Louis. The most outstanding player should go to the player with the most impressive season overall, which I would say was Thomas or D.Sedin.

Posted by NHLJeff from Pens fan in Chicago, IL on 06/23/11 at 10:43 AM ET

Avatar

Thomas should have received the MVP trophy.  Here’s why:

Regular season he had the lowest goals against and highest save percentage - he was the best goalie in the league, yet his team finished with the 8th best record in the league.  Which means that the rest of his team was just an average team during the regular season.  What happens if you replace Thomas with an “average” goalie?  The B’s easily lose 5-6 more games and end up not getting into the playoffs.  Think about that - without Thomas the B’s don’t make the playoffs and they don’t go on to win the Stanley Cup!  How is Thomas not the most valuable player to his team over any other player in the league???

Posted by B's fan from Boston on 06/23/11 at 11:32 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

if anyone thinks that a million dollar diamond is not the most valuable if it is surrounded by other hundred thousand dollar diamonds when another diamond that is worth $700 k is all alone with some gravel you can take it to the comments

It all depends on relative value and how closely you read the description of the trophy:

The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team.

-source

Yes, a million-dollar diamond compared directly to a $700K diamond is worth more.  It is a more outstanding diamond.

However, when taken out of the bag (or away from his team), the one that contained the more outstanding diamond is still a bag of precious gemstones while the other is a baggie full of rocks.  Therefore, in the context of your metaphor, you’re not looking for the costliest diamond, you’re looking for the diamond that carries the largest percentage of the overall value of the container it is in.

If they took out the “to his team” portion of the Hart’s description, I would agree with you.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 06/23/11 at 12:02 PM ET

Steve Strowbridge's avatar

The Pearson Award is essentially another MVP but voted on by the players and not the hockey writers

The Ted Lindsay Award, formerly known as the Lester B. Pearson Award, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League’s most outstanding player in the regular season as judged by the members of the NHL Players Association.

Posted by Steve Strowbridge from St. John's, NL, CA on 06/23/11 at 12:39 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

JJ

A million dollar diamond is worth a million dollars.  A $700k diamond is worth $700k.  $1 million > $700 k regardless of the other diamonds you possess.

Steve

It was inadvertent that I called the award the Pearson and not th so I the Lindsay, but its the same award so I think I am happy to change it.  I have several times caught myself trying to call the conferences Campbell and Wales (don’t think I ever have on this blog).  Once something gets established by a certain name, I am resistant to change.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/11 at 02:47 PM ET

Steve Strowbridge's avatar

Makes sense.

With re-alignment after next season, we’ll all have to get used to new division/conference(?) names.

Posted by Steve Strowbridge from St. John's, NL, CA on 06/23/11 at 02:50 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

A million dollar diamond is worth a million dollars.  A $700k diamond is worth $700k.  $1 million > $700 k regardless of the other diamonds you possess.

You’re right.

And if the NHL told us that the Hart Trophy should go to the priciest diamond, then everything you say about million-dollar diamonds is correct.

However, the NHL does not tell us that the Hart Trophy goes to the priciest diamond.  The NHL tells us that the Hart Trophy goes to the diamond that’s the most valuable in its group.  The NHL does not instruct voters to compare all the diamonds against one another to find the priciest.  The NHL instructs voters to compare each diamond as a make up of its value relative to its team’s total worth. 

If you want to argue that the Hart trophy SHOULD be awarded to the priciest diamond, that is fine - we can take up that fight.  However, by the letter of the rule here, I am correct.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 06/23/11 at 03:11 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

The most valuable diamond to its group is the one with the largest overall value.  In oyur example the million dollar diamond ios most valuable to its team (no other diamond is worth $1 million to its team).

Accepting your definition of the Hart Trophy (which seems to me like an inadvertant semenatics game) the MVP should often be the best player on the worst team.  If an NHL team consisted of a borderline player and a bunch of 8 year olds, the borderline player should win Hart.  It is consistent with your definition.  It is also really stupid because he wouldn’t be close to the best player in the league.  Also, it never happens because people who fight for your definition know it is stupid.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/11 at 03:16 PM ET

Steve Strowbridge's avatar

If an NHL team consisted of a borderline player and a bunch of 8 year olds

An NHL team can not have 8 year olds on the roster. There are actually rules against it.

Posted by Steve Strowbridge from St. John's, NL, CA on 06/23/11 at 03:23 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Inadvertent semantics is what happens in most of our discussions and most of those cases don’t come from me.

I used a poor example the first time putting the $700k diamond in a bag of rocks though and you’re right that giving a mediocre player a most-valuable player award based on being surrounded by pluggers would be a mistake.

But that doesn’t happen.

When there is league-wide comparison, that comparison should be more among teams.

The $700K diamond in a bag of rocks is discounted because the bag of rocks is not valuable.

What is valuable is the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs.  If we had to throw Tim Thomas out of the mix (which we do to keep arguing, since you and I agree that he should have won the Hart trophy), we’re left with a battle between Sedin and Perry.

I do not doubt that Daniel Sedin is a better hockey player than Corey Perry.  However, Corey Perry is very likely the difference between the Ducks going to the playoffs and not going to the playoffs.  Meanwhile, the Canucks very likely would have won their division even without Daniel Sedin.

By that concept - Corey Perry was more valuable to the Ducks than Daniel Sedin was to the Canucks.

If we’re going to give the Hart Trophy to the most outstanding forward, then there’s no reason that Sidney Crosby should not have won the award.  He is certainly a more outstanding hockey player than Daniel Sedin.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 06/23/11 at 03:35 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

JJ’s new definition of the Hart Trophy.

The player most responsible for a team making the playoffs.  Presumably it is only open to borderline playoff teams who barely qualify.  By that definition, I would probably support Henrik Lundqvist.  The Rangers barely made the playoffs - they are two points above Carolina who missed out.  Where would the Rangers have been without Lundqvist in goal?  It is far more certain to me that they would have missed the playoffs than a Perry-less Anaheim team.

Henrik Lundqvist wasn’t the best goalie in the league.  He wasn’t worthy of a Vezina Trophy nomination let alone a Hart Trophy nomination, yet he best fits your new defintion.

If we’re going to give the Hart Trophy to the most outstanding forward, then there’s no reason that Sidney Crosby should not have won the award. 

In 41 games played, Crosby definitely was not as valuable as somebody who played twice as many games,

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/11 at 03:42 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

JJ’s new definition of the Hart Trophy.

The player most responsible for a team making the playoffs

Now who’s dabbling in semantics?  If I have to start from scratch when I adjust my argument to better-define what I mean each time, this is going to take a very long time.

In 41 games played, Crosby definitely was not as valuable as somebody who played twice as many games,

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/11 at 02:42 PM ET

He was certainly more outstanding through any 41-game stretch that Sedin or Perry had.  If the most outstanding player is the most valuable player, that title remains with Crosby and he should have been given the award.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 06/23/11 at 04:05 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

JJ

You are being silly.  a season is 82 games not 41.  while Crosby may have been the best player for 41 games he was a zero for the other half of the year.

I don’t see how your current Hart Trophy definition could support anyone better than Henrik Lundqvist.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/23/11 at 04:48 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

I don’t see how your current Hart Trophy definition could support anyone better than Henrik Lundqvist.

Because you have misread what I was saying to indicate that helping a team make the playoffs should be the only criteria.

Corey Perry did more than Sedin to ensure a relative measure of success AND played better than Henrik Lundqvist.  I didn’t think I would need to re-build the first argument for you to grasp that the 2nd was an addendum and not a replacement.

Besides, if we’re just going with the overly simplistic in/out of the playoffs talk, then why wouldn’t it be Thomas again?

You are being silly.  a season is 82 games not 41.  while Crosby may have been the best player for 41 games he was a zero for the other half of the year.

Let’s be more silly.  Let’s use a silly diamond metaphor to explain this silly position.

A $1.4M diamond that you only own half of will only net you $700k if you cash in its value, but on the grand scale of things, it is still worth more money than a $1M diamond.

Therefore, Sidney Crosby should have won the Hart for being the league’s most outstanding player and, by your extension, the most valuable.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 06/23/11 at 04:57 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

I pick Lidstrom for third in the Norris race.  The majority of media voters picked him 3rd or worse.  Only in a bizzaro world Red Wing fandom can that be seen as a bias.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 06/26/11 at 10:58 PM ET

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imageThe Puck Stops Here was founded during the 2004/05 lockout as a place to rant about hockey. The original site contains over 1000 posts, some of which were also published on FoxSports.com.

Who am I? A diehard hockey fan.

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