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The Puck Stops Here

I NOW Consider Pavel Datsyuk A Hall Of Famer

I like to keep track of what point I think a player crosses the point where he becomes a Hall of Famer regardless of what happens in the rest of his career and I think Pavel Datsyuk has crossed that point.  He crosses it by being named captain of the Russian Olympic hockey team as they host the Olympics in Sochi.  There was some question about whether or not he would be healthy enough to play in the Olympics but with his NHL game tonight it is clear that he will be there.

Datsyuk is a player who has won several of the lesser NHL awards in the Lady Byng (four times) and Selke (three times).  That amount of hardware puts him near a Hall of Fame career.  The problem had been that Datsyuk had never won any of the major awards (Hart, Ross, Smythe, Richard...).  He had never made First Team All Star.  In 2009, he made Second Team All Star and finished third in the Hart Trophy voting.  That is his best single season showing and that alone is not enough.  His career point totals are growing.  He currently has 799 career points.  His career totals are not yet on the surefire Hall of Famer level but he has the intangibles that show he is a better player than his point totals suggest.  He is an award winning defensive forward (that alone would not make a Hall of Famer - it doesn't for Guy Carbonneau or Jere Lehtonen) and he is a good leader (chosen for the Olympic Team).  The sum of these achievements makes him a Hall of Famer regardless of the rest of his career.

With Pavel Datsyuk added to my active Hall of Famer list, it has grown to 15.  I am leaving Sergei Fedorov on it even though he only played one game in the Spengler Cup in his comeback so far.  Time will tell if he plays another game.  Here is my current list:

Daniel Alfredsson
Martin Brodeur
Zdeno Chara
Sidney Crosby
Pavel Datsyuk
Sergei  Fedorov
Sergei Gonchar
Jarome Iginla
Jaromir Jagr
Evgeni Malkin
Alexander Ovechkin
Martin St Louis
Teemu Selanne
Tim Thomas
Joe Thornton

As hockey is played in the Olympics and the remainder of the season, I expect the list will grow.

Filed in: | The Puck Stops Here | Permalink
 

Comments

RhymeTimeWingsDings's avatar

Ummm duh…

Posted by RhymeTimeWingsDings on 02/07/14 at 03:21 AM ET

Chet's avatar

it’s not even your third grade writing that upsets me about this, it’s the fact that your entire *#$%@& post has nothing to say about the 2 cups this man has win. he’s a highlight reel, generational player, a clear shoe in for the HOF. get your shit together, Jesus Christ…

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 04:33 AM ET

Chet's avatar

honestly you have no business writing on this site

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 04:35 AM ET

Chet's avatar

I NOW CONSIDER PSH AN UNWORTHY PUNCHLINE

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:27 AM ET

Chet's avatar

I was so upset, I cannot even stop posting… You’re so *#$%@& wrong it’s unbelievable… What the *#$%@& planet have you been living on that this guy was never a Hall of Famer?

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:29 AM ET

Chet's avatar

Honestly, who lets you post on this site? It’s that retarded… this is so unreal it’s not even funny, the entire site has lost its legitimacy.

After this idiocy, how can I take anything on the site seriously after this?

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:30 AM ET

Chet's avatar

Just unreal.

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:31 AM ET

Chet's avatar

Best case scenario, you’re in junior high…

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:31 AM ET

Chet's avatar

I just looked at the rest of your list, you are a *#$%@& idiot… get the *#$%@& off the site…

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:34 AM ET

Chet's avatar

Sorry if this is abusive, but of course no I am not… Who the *#$%@& is this guy… I hope it’s Ken Holland posting for fun… this is the last straw, get rid of this guy…

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:36 AM ET

Chet's avatar

Honestly, Paul, after years of nonsense, can we not be finished yet?

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:36 AM ET

Chet's avatar

Otherwise, feel free to ban me… I guess I know nothing about hockey…

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:37 AM ET

Chet's avatar

One last thought, even Dats had played 15 years for Tampa Bay, you’d have to admit he is a Hall of Famer and always was… This kk writer has been and will continue to be a bunch of nonsense garbage!

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:43 AM ET

Chet's avatar

One last thought, PSH… I agree Datsyuk is a Hall of Famer.

Jesus *#$%@& Christ

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:44 AM ET

TeamDub's avatar

*slow clap*

Posted by TeamDub from The gratch. on 02/07/14 at 07:24 AM ET

Chet's avatar

thx!
smile

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 07:30 AM ET

Avatar

Despite the relentless ridiculous posting by Chet, i have to agree with him. Datsyuk has been a Hall Of Famer for years. He has proven himself time after time, and has been regarded by the serious hockey media, and even more so by his playing contemporaries as one of the greatest players in the world for ages now. With the advent of Nick Lidström’s retirement he is also considered the smartest hockey player, and one of the most widely liked. Personally i view him as one of the most dynamic, skilled. and thrilling players in the history of the game. He’s an artist on the ice, and with his artistry he brings the game to a higher level for all who follow in his wake.

Posted by Wheresmyhat on 02/07/14 at 08:06 AM ET

Paul's avatar

Chet, TPSH is entitled to his opinion just as you are entitled to yours by leaving comments.

There is no banning going on here, carry on if you wish but I think your point has been proven.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 02/07/14 at 08:56 AM ET

topshelf14's avatar

Chet, you’re my hero.

Posted by topshelf14 from Detroit, MI on 02/07/14 at 09:02 AM ET

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I’m a big Datsyuk guy, but the author of this post has every right to feel like Datsyuk was a borderline HOFer. Thats where I am still. HOF voting is tricky, and I thinks Pavs will be waiting for a while. Now the IIHF is something different…

But seriously, the author states his opinion and why he feels that way, giving very credible reasons. Isn’t that much more than what bible thumpers give us?? (thats what it says n the bible!)

One last thought, even Dats had played 15 years for Tampa Bay…

>Trolls about 3rd grade English
>English is poor.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 09:28 AM ET

TKShreve's avatar

He’s a shoe in. Simply on the facts that “Wheresmyhat” stated. He’s way too exciting and dynamic on the ice to overlook.

Posted by TKShreve from East Uptown on 02/07/14 at 10:38 AM ET

bezukov's avatar

It kind of takes me aback that you had Joe Thornton on the list but not Datsyuk.  Granted Thornton has better career totals (he’s also been in the league longer).  The fact that he won the Ross and the Hart in ‘06 on two different teams speak highly of Thornton, but after eight years what can anybody say about him besides, what a waste?  No more individual awards, one President’s Trophy, no trips to the SCF, and he’s the leader of a team that perennially under achieves. 

Datsyuk has three Selke’s and two Stanley Cups.  He earned his bonafides as a leader last season when almost lead his green-behind-the-ears his team to a victory over the high favored and eventualy Stanley Cup Champs.  He’s consistently ranked among the top five players in the league among his peers.  Thornton on the other hand sort of reminds me of Paul Kariya or Jeremy Roenick (in terms of stats not personality)... a guy who made a lot of noise in his career but has nothing but consolation prizes to show for it. 

I wonder if Thornton would trade roles with Datsyuk at this point?  Seem to me he should be the one clawing to climb on the HOF wagon, not Datsyuk.

Posted by bezukov from the kids are alright. on 02/07/14 at 11:00 AM ET

Avatar

I actually think PSH’s views here are reasonable and well within the mainstream. But I too would argue that Datsyuk has been, or should have been, at this point already for at least a year or two.

For a stretch of several years (and arguably still today) he was widely considered to be one of the top 5 to 10 forwards in the league. Offensively he’s a step behind the very best, but had an elite 4-year peak and has been able to sustain all-star level scoring for several more years beyond that. His possession numbers are elite. His defensive skills are elite.

Yes he only has one postseason all-star appearance (a second team in 2009), but he also plays the most competitive position (center) in a 30-team league, so the “counting postseason all-stars” or “counting trophies” method of evaluating players sort of breaks down. In most seasons there are several centers who are better, more valuable players than some of the wingers who make postseason all-star teams, which is why there have been so many lesser players who’ve lucked into winger spots due to fortunate situations and lack of competition. Chris Kunitz, James Neal, Ray Whitney—even generally well regarded players like Marian Gaborik, Marian Hossa, and Alex Kovalev would never have gotten close to a postseason all-star team if they had been centers instead of wingers.

Even Steve Yzerman only made one postseason-all star team, and though he did win a major award (Pearson), it’s hard explain why exactly he won it, other than voter fatigue from players desperate to give it to anyone, ANYONE other than Lemieux or Gretzky.

So I tend to place less overall emphasis on individual trophies or all-star appearances than you do, especially in today’s 30-team NHL (trophies are decided subjectively by voters who make mistakes, player value is not evenly distributed by position, sub-elite players can win trophies by fluking into great seasons). They’re helpful, but only part of an overall argument anchored by the numbers.

Datsyuk is not one of the very very best players ever to play, but by my own personal evaluation he’s well within the Hall of Fame standard. Just as a for instance, I would argue that, adjusting for era, Datsyuk’s offensive peak was comparable to Brendan Shanahan’s, plus he played a tougher position and had significantly more defensive value. Shanahan of course started younger, played longer, picked up some first-team all-star spots thanks in part to the relative lack of good left wings in the universe, and racked up much higher career totals, but I tend to see this all as less important than peak value. You can make a good (although certainly not slam-dunk) case that Datsyuk was one of the 5 best forwards in the world, or very nearly so, for several years. There’s no way you could make that argument for Shanahan.

That’s just my take though; others may disagree and weight career totals or trophies more strongly than I do.

Posted by Sven22 from Grand Rapids on 02/07/14 at 11:06 AM ET

henrymalredo's avatar

I’m a big of a fan of Datsyuk as anyone, but I don’t think he’s a shoe-in.  I think if he plays at a consistent level for the remainder of his contract in Detroit and hits or passes 1,000 pts, he’ll get in, but honestly, I don’t think if, for some reason he retired today, he would get in.  But, I think at the end of the day, if he passes 1,000 pts before he retires, his Selkes, two Stanley Cups and his exciting play will make up for his (relatively) low career totals and lack of major offensive awards.

Posted by henrymalredo from Lansing on 02/07/14 at 11:08 AM ET

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Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 03:33, 03:35, 05:27, 05:29, 05:30, 05:31 (x2), 05:34, 05:36 (x2), 05:37, 05:43 & 05:44 AM ET

Three words: It’s just hockey.

I love the Detroit Red Wings as much as any other Wings fan, but this is excessive. The Puck Stops Here didn’t do anything out of line, he simply stated his opinion in a clear and concise way. Do I agree with everything he wrote? No, I don’t. But that’s always been what I liked about Kukla’s Korner—the diversity.

Posted by MotorCityHoff on 02/07/14 at 11:13 AM ET

Avatar

Posted by Sven22 from Grand Rapids on 02/07/14 at 10:06 AM ET

You sir, are a BOSS. Great take!

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 11:27 AM ET

Avatar

Chet, you have just articulated what many of us have been thinking for quite a while not, but out of respect for Paul, have simply remained quiet. I respect TPSH’s right to post what he wants, using words and sentences from any grade level, but I don’t even bother reading his posts any more. I simply wish him luck and move on to the more informative, coherent, and meaningful posts on this site - even if they are dominated by Red Wing homers. smile

Posted by DAG on 02/07/14 at 12:01 PM ET

Laran's avatar

Chet absolutely nailed 2 key points.

1. TPSH is a horrible negative writer that has always only brought the status of this site down.

2. This article is a clear trolling attempt on a Wings heavy site.  Not unusual because that the only way people respond to his articles.  Just look through them for proof…

Posted by Laran on 02/07/14 at 12:04 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

The only minor disagreement I have here is the idea that it took being named the captain of Russia’s Olympic squad. If international recognition could fill the lack here, I’d have simply done it last June when he was awarded the Kharlamov Trophy for the second time in three seasons.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 02/07/14 at 12:05 PM ET

Avatar

I NOW consider Chet to be a better blogger than PSH.

Posted by Garth on 02/07/14 at 12:10 PM ET

silversailer's avatar

Well said Chet! I honestly can’t stand the useless Bull**** this guy is constantly posting.
Adds absolutely nothing to the content of the site except hate for him.

Posted by silversailer on 02/07/14 at 12:21 PM ET

calquake's avatar

Posted by Garth on 02/07/14 at 11:10 AM ET


Hahahahahahahahahaha.

Posted by calquake on 02/07/14 at 12:30 PM ET

silversailer's avatar

And this post has to be the biggest joke on the site.

Datsyuk wasn’t a HOFer until he was named captain of the Russian team??
He probably would have been a heavy candidate for the Wings captaincy after Lids if it wasn’t for the language barrier.

Posted by silversailer on 02/07/14 at 12:39 PM ET

ckrila's avatar

People have to remember that the Hockey Hall of Fame is not like baseball. It is much easier to get into and they count all your accomplishments not just what you did in the NHL.

Posted by ckrila on 02/07/14 at 01:22 PM ET

Avatar

Since no one asked, let me expand a little bit on my rationale here:

Since the 2004-05 lockout (a little more than 8 full seasons’ worth of data) the only players who 1) played a meaningful amount of games (i.e. more than a couple of seasons) and 2) finished ahead of Datsyuk (1.06) in points per game by a statistically significant margin are Crosby (1.41), Malkin (1.22), Oveckin (1.21), and Thornton (1.13). With Thornton the difference amounts to about 5 points per 82 games.

In purely offensive terms, you might subjectively put guys who are near or a bit behind Datsyuk in the ppg department but score more goals—Stamkos, St. Louis, Kovalchuk—at or a little ahead of Datsyuk’s average level of offensive performance over the time frame (and Stamkos’ current peak is already demonstrably higher), but I don’t think you can put anyone CLEARLY ahead of Datsyuk offensively, overall, over the 2006-2014 time frame besides those first four.

Throw in the fact that Datsyuk also happens to be an elite defensive center in addition to his offensive talents, and I think you can make a credible argument that, despite only one 2nd team all-star selection and one Hart Trophy nomination, Datsyuk has been the fourth or fifth best forward overall in the league over roughly the last decade—or even if he hasn’t, that the actual performance gap between Datsyuk and the guys you would put in those spots is so close that you’d have to be splitting hairs to really choose one or the other.

In my mind, that’s a hall of famer.

Posted by Sven22 from Grand Rapids on 02/07/14 at 03:36 PM ET

SK77's avatar

I can’t believe that no one has mentioned the fact that he’s known as The Magic Man on approximately 13 billion iPhones worldwide.

That alone is worth a place in the Hall of Fame and sweater hanging in the rafters at the Pepsi Center.

Posted by SK77 on 02/07/14 at 03:43 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

I can’t believe that no one has mentioned the fact that he’s known as The Magic Man on approximately 13 billion iPhones worldwide.

It is hard to argue with Siri.

Posted by Laran on 02/07/14 at 11:04 AM ET

[

I thought TPSH kept posting so we had plenty of punchlines in the LB.  He’s a selfless hero.

Posted by Hootinani on 02/07/14 at 05:14 PM ET

Chet's avatar

I posted that stuff out of frustration, and I could have been way nicer with my tone, respectfully disagreeing instead of ridiculing him. I apologize to TPSH.

Posted by Chet from twitter: thegansen on 02/07/14 at 06:12 PM ET

silversailer's avatar

Don’t worry about it Chet,

I went on my own rampage out of frustration at letsgowings.com a week ago and got my first ban (at that point I really just wanted to make my point and didn’t really care about not posting on the site for a week as I have a life outside of internet forums). Afterwards I did feel bad about how I handled it, (as you said a different course of action could/should have been taken) but that doesn’t stop what I was saying from being true.

You said what needed to be said and it sounds like numerous others have been thinking the same for a while now.

Posted by silversailer on 02/07/14 at 08:47 PM ET

Avatar

Daniel Alfredsson - Yep
Martin Brodeur - Yep
Zdeno Chara - Maybe
Sidney Crosby - Yep. 
Pavel Datsyuk - Yep
Sergei Fedorov - Yep
Sergei Gonchar - No
Jarome Iginla - Maybe
Jaromir Jagr - Yep
Evgeni Malkin - Not yet
Alexander Ovechkin - No
Martin St Louis - Yep
Teemu Selanne - Yep
Tim Thomas - Maybe
Joe Thornton - No

Zetterbeg - Yep
Doan - No
Toewes - Yep
Sedins - No
Bergeron - Yep
Phaneuf - No
Pronger - Yep
Lecavalier - Maybe
Hiller - Maybe
Luongo - No
Miller - Maybe
Suter - No
Parise - No
Briere - Maybe
Nash - No
Weber - No
Kane - No
Hossa - No
Keith - Maybe
Spezza - Maybe
Jovanovski - Maybe

There.  Done.  Your all welcome.

Posted by maltby18 on 02/07/14 at 10:00 PM ET

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About The Puck Stops Here

imageThe Puck Stops Here was founded during the 2004/05 lockout as a place to rant about hockey. The original site contains over 1000 posts, some of which were also published on FoxSports.com.

Who am I? A diehard hockey fan.

Why am I blogging? I want to.

Why are you reading it? ???

Email: y2kfhl@hotmail.com