Kukla's Korner

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Having “A Hockey Discussion” with The Puck Stops Here

If you\‘re familiar with the Kuklas Korner stable of blogs and haven\‘t blocked any of them yet, then you\‘re very likely familiar with the Blog The Puck Stops Here. Actually, if you\‘ve blocked any of the blogs on Kuklas Korner from your main page feed (a very cool feature rolled out recently to members), then it\‘s even more likely that you\‘re familiar with this blog.

The Puck Stops Here is one of the bloggers who has been with the site for a long time. His posts are often pieces that are designed to take a statistical look at the world of hockey and make sense of the confusion. Sometimes he jumps to erroneous conclusions (like when he angrily typed up a missive in his own comments stating that he feels he would make a better GM than Steve Yzerman... to quote him \“I watch games regularly.  I have a far better background in statistics than Steve Yzerman does and can make much more sense of the numbers behind the game than he would ever hope to.\”) and sometimes he comes up with very thought-provoking material. Unfortunately, woe be to the poor soul who disagrees with a conclusion brought about by TPSH.

A recent example of this happened just yesterday, as TPSH posted a blog called \‘Early Top Defenseman\’. In this writeup, he names Dion Phaneuf as the front-runner for the Norris Trophy after only eight games. This is one post in a series he\‘s done in the past and will likely continue to do where he tracks trophy candidates from the beginning of the season right up until it\‘s time to explain what broken reasoning the PHWA used when disagreeing with his picks for the various pieces of postseason hardware.

As usual, there are people who disagree that one should be going so far as to say \“Norris Front Runner\” on this side of Halloween. When faced with this criticism, TPSH responded as such:

Some of the commenters here must not be interested in hockey as they would rather say its too early in the season than discuss hockey.  That is a shame.

This is a tone often employed by this author when faced with criticism. He often becomes accusatory and patronizing. If you\‘re at all familiar with my history on that site, you\‘ll know what came in response:

Hooray logical progressions!

TPSH claims that commenters who do not wish to discuss end of season awards in October are not interested in hockey.

THEREFORE, it can be logically inferred that TPSH doesn’t consider hockey to be anything more than the sum of the postseason NHL awards given out.

Trying to fight fire with fire, TPSH responded with this:

It can be logically inferred that JJ is just here to be a smart ass.  He obviously doesn\‘t want a serious conversation about anything.

To be honest, that\‘s a fairly good comeback from somebody who I feel has the emotional range of a toaster. Unfortunately, from here, the situation devolved. I made attempt after attempt to answer the charge that I don\‘t want a serious conversation about anything only to see my comments repeatedly deleted.  TPSH\‘s reasoning for deleting my comments are numerous and varied, but they all come down to the same thing in the end: that my comments in response to this accusation are not sufficiently hockey-related to remain public.

This is to say nothing about how hockey-related the comment that I\‘m just here to be a smart ass and that I obviously don\‘t want a serious conversation about anything is, just that apparently, I\‘m not allowed to have a serious conversation about a topic that TPSH first brought up.

After several tries to get my comments accepted and several taunting emails from him about how he would not let that happen, I settled on posting \“I want a serious conversation, but you keep deleting my comments.\” The only reason I can think that he would delete this one is that he does not want people to know that he deletes comments of those who disagree with him.  To TSPH, the concept of \“winning\” an argument is more important than having a discussion. What\‘s more on his blog, he is allowed to take personal shots at the intelligence or hockey-dedication of his commenters, but he will not accept similar responses, even if he\‘s the one to bring up the subject in the first place.

In my opinion, this is cowardly and childish behavior from a blogger. I, like many other commenters have found that his answer for persistence in asking that he follow the rules he sets for his commenters is to eventually start editing their comments in a way so as to put words on the screen that you did not type. I was warned via email that persisting to demand to be allowed to answer the accusation that I\‘m not interested in having a serious conversation about anything would lead to this and found that my last comment had been changed to this:

I would like to see Dion Phaneuf on the Detroit Red Wings.

edit necessary to make it a hockey comment.

As of this writing, I have still not received an answer from him about how calling me a smart ass and saying it\‘s obvious I don\‘t want to have a serious conversation is a hockey comment. 

But I\‘m not going to worry about that… Instead, I\‘m going to take advantage of Kuklas Korner\‘s great blog-blocking feature.  Thank you for making this a possibility, Paul.  I only hope that being ignored doesn\‘t drive TPSH to troll others even louder so that he can use his tyrannical rule over his own little blog to make himself feel powerful.

Filed in: NHL Media, Hockey Bloggers, | KK Members Blog | Permalink
 

Comments

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OlderThanChelios's avatar

I, like many other commenters have found that his answer for persistence in asking that he follow the rules he sets for his commenters is to eventually start editing their comments in a way so as to put words on the screen that you did not type.

Tricycle Boy edited one of my posts a while back, changing the text to make it appear that I actually supported his position. To Paul’s credit, he read the riot act to The Petulant One. But now that I see how many others have had their posts deleted, and how some are still having their posts edited, I join with those who are asking that his blog be removed from KK.

It’s one thing to post nonsense (and I agree that Nathan’s description is not that far from the truth), but it’s a completely different thing to delete and edit posts simply because you don’t like what’s being said. It’s time for Mr. Deleto to load his calculator onto the back of his tricycle and peddle on out of here.

Posted by OlderThanChelios from Grand Rapids, MI on 10/26/11 at 02:15 PM ET

awould's avatar

Wow, suddenly TPSH’s avatar seems like an absolute bullseye.

Weirdo.

Posted by TeamDub from The gratch. on 10/26/11 at 12:10 PM ET

Best post of the day.

Posted by awould on 10/26/11 at 02:16 PM ET

Avatar

so he deleted some comments.  who cares?  paul does it all the time with anti-wings stuff in A2Y blogs. it’s a “members-only” blog.

why would one of the other blog owners do any differently?  TPSH deleted one of my comments…big deal.

a blog-fight?  seriously?

sad.

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 02:16 PM ET

Forlorn in VA's avatar

TPSH- You’re actually Ryan Lambert, aren’t you?

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 10/26/11 at 12:14 PM ET

lol

Ryan Lambert’s inability to control his hatred of all things Red Wings makes it unlikely.  TPSH doesn’t exhibit NEARLY enough anti-Wing vitriol for them to be the same person.

Posted by Forlorn in VA on 10/26/11 at 02:21 PM ET

Avatar

Call me naive to be shocked that Paul would continue to allow a blogger that deletes posters’ comments without a valid reason. What is even more disturbing is that TPSH hasd edited posters’ comments and is allowed to remain a blogger.

KK and WiiM are my favorite sites because of their quality and fairness. Editing someone’s comments is beyond words and makes me wonder about KK all around now.

Posted by wingsluver4ever from TC on 10/26/11 at 02:23 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

For the record.  My comments have been editted twice ever (JJ and HockeyinHD - anyo9ne else claiming they had a comment editted is misinformed).  Both times when somebody was a persistent troll who posted a deleted comment repeatedly and was told in an email beforehand if they dont stop I will edit the comment.  Ther comment was editted to say something benign and hockey related.

If only these posters could learn that this is a place for hockey discussion.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 10/26/11 at 02:26 PM ET

Avatar

Garth.  The Red Wings also have Mike Commodore and players of his ilk.

Yeah, but Commodore is making $1M and is the 7th defenseman.  And they also have Brad Stuart and Nik Kronwall who are actual good defensive players.

Anyhow, this is not the place for such discussion.  Back you to being a douche…

Posted by Garth on 10/26/11 at 02:26 PM ET

Forlorn in VA's avatar

Posted by wingsluver4ever from TC on 10/26/11 at 12:23 PM ET

I have never heard of any deletion or editing by Paul or other bloggers that was not warranted.  I know Paul has deleted comments that have racist comments, or extreme personal attacks, but that’s all.  I don’t know of any other blogger but TPSH who has engaged in this kind of activity.

Posted by Forlorn in VA on 10/26/11 at 02:27 PM ET

Avatar

editted

edited

Posted by Garth on 10/26/11 at 02:27 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Call me naive to be shocked that Paul would continue to allow a blogger that deletes posters’ comments without a valid reason. What is even more disturbing is that TPSH hasd edited posters’ comments and is allowed to remain a blogger.

KK and WiiM are my favorite sites because of their quality and fairness. Editing someone’s comments is beyond words and makes me wonder about KK all around now.

Posted by wingsluver4ever from TC on 10/26/11 at 12:23 PM ET

I don’t allow it.  When it happened in the past, I did communicate my feelings about it with the TPSH.

I am still researching the most recent claims too.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 10/26/11 at 02:27 PM ET

Avatar

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 12:16 PM ET

It’s pathetic that you don’t care if your posts are deleted or CHANGED.

Posted by Garth on 10/26/11 at 02:28 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

Yeah, but Commodore is making $1M and is the 7th defenseman.  And they also have Brad Stuart and Nik Kronwall who are actual good defensive players.

Anyhow, this is not the place for such discussion

This is a hockey blog.  This is the only hockey discussion underway.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 10/26/11 at 02:28 PM ET

Avatar

It’s pathetic that you don’t care if your posts are deleted or CHANGED.

well when the owner of the site does the same, why would anyone be surprised?

i mean come on.

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 02:30 PM ET

Paul's avatar

so he deleted some comments. who cares? paul does it all the time with anti-wings stuff in A2Y blogs. it’s a “members-only” blog.

why would one of the other blog owners do any differently? TPSH deleted one of my comments…big deal.

a blog-fight? seriously?

sad.

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 12:16 PM ET

I don’t delete anti-Wings comments.  If they are vulgar or just egging someone on, yes, they are deleted.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 10/26/11 at 02:30 PM ET

Paul's avatar

It’s pathetic that you don’t care if your posts are deleted or CHANGED.

well when the owner of the site does the same, why would anyone be surprised?

i mean come on.

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 12:30 PM ET

I have never edited a comment.  Continue with this I will start deleting comments.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 10/26/11 at 02:32 PM ET

awould's avatar

If only these posters could learn that this is a place for hockey discussion.

Man, if only everyone agreed with you the world would be a better place. It’s this kind of comment that makes everyone keep this anti-you thread alive.

This is a hockey blog.  This is the only hockey discussion underway.

Er, uh, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Keep moving, nothing to see here!

Posted by awould on 10/26/11 at 02:33 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

For the record.  My comments have been editted twice ever (JJ and HockeyinHD - anyo9ne else claiming they had a comment editted is misinformed).

Are you saying that you’ve never edited OlderThanChelios’ comments?

Because if you are saying that, you are lying.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/26/11 at 02:34 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

Good memory JJ.  You really are an expert in me.  You know me better than I do.

It was older than Chelios that was the second case.  Hockey in HD has never had a comment edited.  I was wrong.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 10/26/11 at 02:35 PM ET

Avatar

I don’t delete anti-Wings comments.  If they are vulgar or just egging someone on, yes, they are deleted.

rrrrrrrrright.  whatever you say.

i guess the next thing you’ll tell me is that you don’t ban posters that are anti-wings? and that you don’t allow A2Y members to break the site’s posting rules?

so you delete comments and ban posters…whatever. it’s your site.  but at least man up and be honest about it.

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 02:36 PM ET

Chris from NOHS's avatar

TPSH- You’re actually Ryan Lambert, aren’t you?

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 10/26/11 at 12:14 PM ET

Win!

Posted by Chris from NOHS from Columbus, OH/Grand Rapids, MI on 10/26/11 at 02:36 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

If only these posters could learn that this is a place for hockey discussion.

You have still completely failed to explain what this comment has to do with a hockey discussion:

“It can be logically inferred that JJ is just here to be a smart ass.  He obviously doesn\‘t want a serious conversation about anything. “

This comment had zero bearing on a hockey discussion, but since it was made by you, you did not delete it. 

The blog post above was made to call attention to your do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do rules.

Good memory JJ.  You really are an expert in me.  You know me better than I do.

OTC says in the very comments of this post that you’ve done so. This is not a case of memory unless we’re talking short term.  Read the comment Posted by OlderThanChelios on 10/26/11 at 12:15 PM ET

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/26/11 at 02:38 PM ET

Paul's avatar

I guess the next thing you’ll tell me is that you don’t ban posters that are anti-wings? and that you don’t allow A2Y members to break the site’s posting rules?

so you delete comments and ban posters…whatever. it’s your site. but at least man up and be honest about it.

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 12:36 PM ET

Wings fans have been banned for attacking other blogs.  You just don’t see it.

This is no place to discuss this topic, email me if you have concerns.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 10/26/11 at 02:39 PM ET

awould's avatar

I take an interest in media and how it has evolved with the internet. One constant theme I see is the blogging community’s concerns that they are not seen as ‘serious’ or on par with ‘real journalists’. To me, this is absurd because I find that good bloggers are much more serious and often a better source of information than the supposed real news outlets. Bloggers certainly take more interesting angles, and that is likely because they are free to take risks.

If a news organization routinely edited comments and removed comments without good cause from their websites, they would rightly be condemned for it. It is fundamentally unethical behavior from a journalist. So when bloggers like TPSH do this, it lowers the standing of all bloggers. And this is because TPSH is included as an official blog on a highly respected website.

Were TPSH some dude with a server in his apartment, literally wiping cheetos off his sweatshirt, nobody would care what he did or said on his blog. But he’s not. He’s listed on Kukla’s Korner and should be held to a higher standard.

Posted by awould on 10/26/11 at 02:39 PM ET

TeamDub's avatar

bert mcgert = TPSH.

Posted by TeamDub from The gratch. on 10/26/11 at 02:41 PM ET

Avatar

This is no place to discuss this topic, email me if you have concerns.

that would work if you actually responded to emails.  oh well.

bert mcgert = TPSH

did you miss the part where i said TPSH deleted one of my comments?

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 02:45 PM ET

TeamDub's avatar

did you miss the part where i said TPSH deleted one of my comments?

Oh, my bad.

Someone pretending to be a drooling supporter of himself would never claim injury as a (not so) clever ruse.

I’m sure Paul can check I.P. addys…

Posted by TeamDub from The gratch. on 10/26/11 at 02:48 PM ET

Paul's avatar

This is no place to discuss this topic, email me if you have concerns.

that would work if you actually responded to emails. oh well.

bert mcgert = TPSH

did you miss the part where i said TPSH deleted one of my comments?

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 12:45 PM ET

I’ve had enough of your lies.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 10/26/11 at 02:50 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

I will say that in the past, Paul has been very good at recognizing and shutting down sock-puppeting.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/26/11 at 02:50 PM ET

42jeff's avatar

did you miss the part where i said TPSH deleted one of my comments?
Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 12:45 PM ET

Everybody needs a beard.

Posted by 42jeff from The greater Howard City, MI metroplex on 10/26/11 at 02:50 PM ET

bezukov's avatar

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 12:16 PM ET

I suspect Paul deletes comments on A2Y when the comments are meant only to agitate and aren’t substantive.  I’m not going to question his judgement here.  I’m only going to say there is a distinction between deleting serious points of discussion and deleting peanut gallery comments.

Posted by bezukov from the kids are alright. on 10/26/11 at 02:51 PM ET

MarkK's avatar

SAMPLE SIZE. It just looks silly to start writing posts about postseason awards when we’re not even 10 games into the year.

This makes me want to run a attained power analysis. Maybe if i get some free time later today I’ll run one on the available defenseman data after 8-9 games.

Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 10/26/11 at 02:51 PM ET

Chris from NOHS's avatar

Back to TPSH, I’ve had probably 50 comments deleted, includes multiple comments edited, deleting part of my post which disagreed with him.  I admit, I did mock him in many of those comments, some of which deserved to be deleted, but many others were simply disagreeing with the point or topic subject, which he claimed was “non-hockey related,” and deleted or edited to change the tone of the comment.  This completely pissed me off.

Posted by Chris from NOHS from Columbus, OH/Grand Rapids, MI on 10/26/11 at 02:56 PM ET

Avatar

I’m sure Paul can check I.P. addys…

too late…paul has already banned the IP.  :lol yeah, he’s totally honest!

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 02:57 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

I’ve had probably 50 comments deleted, includes multiple comments edited, deleting part of my post which disagreed with him

This seems to disagree with TPSH’s claim that he’s only ever edited the comments of me and OlderThanChelios.

Either Chris is misinformed, as TPSH claims or TPSH is lying again.

Considering I have a very good history with Chris on this site and on others which have never shown me any indication that Chris either has a bad memory or a habit of making things up, but I do have a history with TPSH where I’ve found him to lie by either malice or omission on several occasions, I choose to believe that Chris is telling the truth.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/26/11 at 03:01 PM ET

Paul's avatar

I’m sure Paul can check I.P. addys…

too late…paul has already banned the IP. :lol yeah, he’s totally honest!

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 12:57 PM ET

I will continue to do so, you are lying and I do not appreciate that.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 10/26/11 at 03:02 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

Chris has never had a comment edited by me.  He is incorrect.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 10/26/11 at 03:03 PM ET

awould's avatar

Posted by bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 12:57 PM ET

Of the dozen or so folks on this thread, you’re literally the only one who feels the way you do. Generally, I’d disagree that just because a lot of people think a certain thing means it’s true, but in this case I’ll go with that argument.

You’re wrong.

Posted by awould on 10/26/11 at 03:03 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Continue the discussion but please let’s stop with the finger pointing because it won’t stop.

He deleted, no he didn’t, yes he did, maybe I’m wrong doesn’t add to the topic at hand.

Thanks.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 10/26/11 at 03:05 PM ET

Avatar

Paul, thank you for clarifying and helping to restore my faith in KK. Just the fact that you are concerned enough to be following this closely says a lot about your interest in the quality of KK.

Posted by wingsluver4ever from TC on 10/26/11 at 03:06 PM ET

awould's avatar

oh man, i should go grab that email trail we had that basically shows you’re a dishonest clown.

Posted by the famous bert mcgert on 10/26/11 at 01:07 PM ET


I would be very interested to see that.

Posted by awould on 10/26/11 at 03:09 PM ET

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