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Having “A Hockey Discussion” with The Puck Stops Here

If you\‘re familiar with the Kuklas Korner stable of blogs and haven\‘t blocked any of them yet, then you\‘re very likely familiar with the Blog The Puck Stops Here. Actually, if you\‘ve blocked any of the blogs on Kuklas Korner from your main page feed (a very cool feature rolled out recently to members), then it\‘s even more likely that you\‘re familiar with this blog.

The Puck Stops Here is one of the bloggers who has been with the site for a long time. His posts are often pieces that are designed to take a statistical look at the world of hockey and make sense of the confusion. Sometimes he jumps to erroneous conclusions (like when he angrily typed up a missive in his own comments stating that he feels he would make a better GM than Steve Yzerman... to quote him \“I watch games regularly.  I have a far better background in statistics than Steve Yzerman does and can make much more sense of the numbers behind the game than he would ever hope to.\”) and sometimes he comes up with very thought-provoking material. Unfortunately, woe be to the poor soul who disagrees with a conclusion brought about by TPSH.

A recent example of this happened just yesterday, as TPSH posted a blog called \‘Early Top Defenseman\’. In this writeup, he names Dion Phaneuf as the front-runner for the Norris Trophy after only eight games. This is one post in a series he\‘s done in the past and will likely continue to do where he tracks trophy candidates from the beginning of the season right up until it\‘s time to explain what broken reasoning the PHWA used when disagreeing with his picks for the various pieces of postseason hardware.

As usual, there are people who disagree that one should be going so far as to say \“Norris Front Runner\” on this side of Halloween. When faced with this criticism, TPSH responded as such:

Some of the commenters here must not be interested in hockey as they would rather say its too early in the season than discuss hockey.  That is a shame.

This is a tone often employed by this author when faced with criticism. He often becomes accusatory and patronizing. If you\‘re at all familiar with my history on that site, you\‘ll know what came in response:

Hooray logical progressions!

TPSH claims that commenters who do not wish to discuss end of season awards in October are not interested in hockey.

THEREFORE, it can be logically inferred that TPSH doesn’t consider hockey to be anything more than the sum of the postseason NHL awards given out.

Trying to fight fire with fire, TPSH responded with this:

It can be logically inferred that JJ is just here to be a smart ass.  He obviously doesn\‘t want a serious conversation about anything.

To be honest, that\‘s a fairly good comeback from somebody who I feel has the emotional range of a toaster. Unfortunately, from here, the situation devolved. I made attempt after attempt to answer the charge that I don\‘t want a serious conversation about anything only to see my comments repeatedly deleted.  TPSH\‘s reasoning for deleting my comments are numerous and varied, but they all come down to the same thing in the end: that my comments in response to this accusation are not sufficiently hockey-related to remain public.

This is to say nothing about how hockey-related the comment that I\‘m just here to be a smart ass and that I obviously don\‘t want a serious conversation about anything is, just that apparently, I\‘m not allowed to have a serious conversation about a topic that TPSH first brought up.

After several tries to get my comments accepted and several taunting emails from him about how he would not let that happen, I settled on posting \“I want a serious conversation, but you keep deleting my comments.\” The only reason I can think that he would delete this one is that he does not want people to know that he deletes comments of those who disagree with him.  To TSPH, the concept of \“winning\” an argument is more important than having a discussion. What\‘s more on his blog, he is allowed to take personal shots at the intelligence or hockey-dedication of his commenters, but he will not accept similar responses, even if he\‘s the one to bring up the subject in the first place.

In my opinion, this is cowardly and childish behavior from a blogger. I, like many other commenters have found that his answer for persistence in asking that he follow the rules he sets for his commenters is to eventually start editing their comments in a way so as to put words on the screen that you did not type. I was warned via email that persisting to demand to be allowed to answer the accusation that I\‘m not interested in having a serious conversation about anything would lead to this and found that my last comment had been changed to this:

I would like to see Dion Phaneuf on the Detroit Red Wings.

edit necessary to make it a hockey comment.

As of this writing, I have still not received an answer from him about how calling me a smart ass and saying it\‘s obvious I don\‘t want to have a serious conversation is a hockey comment. 

But I\‘m not going to worry about that… Instead, I\‘m going to take advantage of Kuklas Korner\‘s great blog-blocking feature.  Thank you for making this a possibility, Paul.  I only hope that being ignored doesn\‘t drive TPSH to troll others even louder so that he can use his tyrannical rule over his own little blog to make himself feel powerful.

Filed in: NHL Media, Hockey Bloggers, | KK Members Blog | Permalink
 

Comments

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Da lil Guy's avatar

So…would you really like to see Phaneuf on the Red Wings?

Posted by Da lil Guy from Guelph, Ontario on 10/26/11 at 11:34 AM ET

Avatar

God damn it, I love you JJ.

Posted by Garth on 10/26/11 at 11:51 AM ET

Chris from NOHS's avatar

I second the love.  Great post.

Posted by Chris from NOHS from Columbus, OH/Grand Rapids, MI on 10/26/11 at 12:01 PM ET

Hank1974's avatar

Seriously? He edited your comments?
To me, that’s a pretty big deal.

If a blogger edited my comments I’d never bother visiting that site again.

Not only is it incredibly childish, but it’s also bordering on slander as these words are being forced into someone’s mouth - or keyboard if you will.

I hope Paul puts an end to this.

If a blogger wants to present a piece about how a player is in the lead of a major individual award 3 weeks into the season, then he has to be prepared for some light ribbing for doing so.

If he can’t, then perhaps he needs to find a different audience or develop thicker skin.

Posted by Hank1974 on 10/26/11 at 12:02 PM ET

Chris from NOHS's avatar

On another note, I used to try to debate many of his points, when he had an obvious logical fallacy or just jumped to a conclusion without the necessary facts.  Damn near every one of my posts were deleted, while he responded with insults.  He’s a complete joke. 

I will admit, I do read the blog, but only because of the train wreck effect.  I want to see what ridiculous fallacy he comes up with next.

Posted by Chris from NOHS from Columbus, OH/Grand Rapids, MI on 10/26/11 at 12:07 PM ET

Avatar

Seriously? He edited your comments?

He’s edited and deleted several of my comments.  It usually involves him deleting my comment and sending me a email, then if I continue to attempt to post “deletable” comments, he will send a taunting email that basically says I need to stop attempting to comment or he’s going to edit my comments as he sees fit.

Posted by Garth on 10/26/11 at 12:07 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

He’s got a pretty long track record of deleting comments which disagree or which even call him out for deleting comments. 

Editing them is the bigger problem for me. While he at least paid me the courtesy of putting a line in the comment of mine that he edited that made it clear he had done so, other commenters have not been so lucky.  I’ve seen several occasions where he’s simply edited a comment to make it sound as though the person was “giving up”.

As far as yesterday’s debate went, I don’t have a problem with the basic concept of trying to keep the discussion hockey-related, but his was truly the first comment which went completely off-track as far as how tied back to the discussion at hand. If he’d have deleted his own comment, then there wouldn’t have been an issue.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/26/11 at 12:12 PM ET

Matt Fry's avatar

Just one reason I don’t read or comment on his blogs anymore and thankful for the blocking system now in place.  I think it’s the only one blocked right now.

Posted by Matt Fry from Winnipeg on 10/26/11 at 12:15 PM ET

dickshilling's avatar

I often check TPSH just to see what kind of foolishness he is writing about on any given day

Posted by dickshilling on 10/26/11 at 12:28 PM ET

Hank1974's avatar

He’s edited and deleted several of my comments.  It usually involves him deleting my comment and sending me a email, then if I continue to attempt to post “deletable” comments, he will send a taunting email that basically says I need to stop attempting to comment or he’s going to edit my comments as he sees fit.

What the heck? That’s not cool.

Haha, I’ll admit, I can be as childish as they come at times, but if you’re a blogger, on a very respected site, you should be held to a higher standard.

Deleting or editing comments because someone doesn’t agree with you is reprehensible.

Posted by Hank1974 on 10/26/11 at 12:37 PM ET

Jeff  OKWingnut's avatar

Holy crap JJ, what did you do to piss in that guys cheerios? 

What, oh you disagreed with him?

All dissent must be silenced, didn’t Hitler try that in the 1930’s?

If I were to hazard a guess, Mr. TPSH dares not have an intellectual debate on his theory with you - lest you prove him wrong;  therefore you must be silenced.

Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 10/26/11 at 12:53 PM ET

TeamDub's avatar

Lol, this is why I took advantage of the new, nifty feature and blocked that psycho the first second it was available.

I often cringed reading the exchanges between you two and wondered how you managed to do it, J.J.. - you’re a better man than I.

My comments were also regularly deleted, but, in fairness, they probably weren’t the most complimentary towards Capn’ Stats.

A great way to start my morning, J.J. - thanks.

Posted by TeamDub from The gratch. on 10/26/11 at 01:00 PM ET

Avatar

Mr. TPSH dares not have an intellectual debate.

Fixed.  (But not edited.)

Posted by Garth on 10/26/11 at 01:04 PM ET

Avatar

Count me on your side JJ. I stopped reading because I felt he was intentionally writing nonsense just to get hits and I’m not going to be his flunky. You cannot debate with him becasue the premise of his blogs are Fact: I am right, False: anything you say that disproves my theory..

Posted by hockey1919 from mid-atlantic on 10/26/11 at 01:08 PM ET

Paul's avatar

hockey1919, I don’t believe he writes to create hits, he writes on the topics he decides to but by no means is he fishing for hits.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 10/26/11 at 01:10 PM ET

DocF's avatar

I think TPSH is a putz.  He attempts to use statistics to prove that which is impossible to quantify mathematically.  I took statistics in college (Our main text was “How to lie with statistics”) and I understand the way they could be used to justify some facet of evaluation of some hockey players.

I have repeatedly commented on his erroneous conclusions.  He has deleted them.  If he edits something I say, I will have a serious discussion with this host, for sure.  That is unacceptable.

Every once in a while, he hits the nail on the head.  No one can be perfect all the time.  In general though, he is a total waste of bandwidth.

Thank you, JJ for bringing this topic to public attention.  It has needed to be said for some time.

Incidentally, Dion Phaneuf is much too egocentric to ever be effective with the Red Wings.

Doc

Posted by DocF from Now: Lynn Haven, FL; was Reidsville, NC on 10/26/11 at 01:11 PM ET

Nathan's avatar

Nice job, JJ.

The funniest thing of all this is that if he’s a real stat guy, he should know that one of the golden rules is SAMPLE SIZE. It just looks silly to start writing posts about postseason awards when we’re not even 10 games into the year.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 10/26/11 at 01:15 PM ET

Nathan's avatar

For what it’s worth, I think stats can and should continue to be used and developed to better evaluate player performance, with the ultimate goal of projection of future. And I don’t think this is impossible. It is obviously much harder than with baseball, but I do think it is a worthwhile endeavor.

What chaps me about TPSH is that he doesn’t treat stats as a road to enlightenment. He treats them as gospel despite the fact that the metrics we have in hockey today are pretty immature and have lots of obvious holes.

The proper role of someone that’s a true stat-geek would be to look at all these metrics critically and attempt to enhance/improve/fix them to be a more accurate representation of the real results on the ice.

I’m not shitting on the advanced stats we have, like Corsi and zone starts, but they are so immature. It is worthwhile to look at these numbers the way TPSH does in his posts, but when there’s obvious gaps in these metrics, at most he points out the gap—there’s never any follow-up post with his own research attempting to fill the gap or provide a better alternative.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 10/26/11 at 01:20 PM ET

42jeff's avatar

I try every once in a while…but only for the same reason that somebody would pick at a scab “Ouch…yep…still annoying”

And for the record, I think Phaneuf would be awesome on the Wings.  Especially after all he’s produced this season.  Vezina type numbers I tell you what!

Posted by 42jeff from The greater Howard City, MI metroplex on 10/26/11 at 01:24 PM ET

Forlorn in VA's avatar

JJ, I blocked him the moment it was possible, and frankly wonder why anyone who has been here for any length of time would even bother to engage him on his blog, as I think it is a pointless endeavor.  He is NOT interested in a discussion, or even a conversation.  The ONLY thing he wants is sycophantic agreement and validation.

I am also highly amused that when fewer people are paying attention to him on his blog, he starts trolling A2Y.

Posted by Forlorn in VA on 10/26/11 at 01:33 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

I often cringed reading the exchanges between you two and wondered how you managed to do it, J.J.. - you’re a better man than I.

I guess I’m a glutton for punishment.  Also, it doesn’t really bother me being called stupid by a person whose opinions on the topic I don’t value.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/26/11 at 01:40 PM ET

redxblack's avatar

I blocked rainman the very day blocking became an option. I’m another one he routinely deleted. I don’t recall getting edited, just deleted and taunted. To date, this is the only blog I’ve blocked here.

I nearly didn’t read this blog based on the title alone, as I thought it might be an interview with that , um, “gentleman.”

Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 10/26/11 at 01:43 PM ET

Avatar

I don’t think I had the guy blocked before, but I rarely if ever actually clicked on his articles.  Now I’ll block him.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 10/26/11 at 01:44 PM ET

gusoline's avatar

I would definitely suggest that if you are tired of this behavior that you use the blog blocking feature now available.  No readers means no revenue, means no reason for the blog. 

Arguing with someone like this only provides page views and food for his ego.  Provide neither and he’ll either modify his behavior to actually provide thought provoking content and spirited discussion (admittedly very unlikely) or go away.

Just because he has a blog doesn’t put him above the roll of troll - and we all know what you do NOT do with trolls…

Posted by gusoline on 10/26/11 at 01:45 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Just because he has a blog doesn’t put him above the roll of troll - and we all know what you do NOT do with trolls…

+1

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/26/11 at 01:47 PM ET

awould's avatar

He’s deleted my comments in the past, and they were by no stretch out of bounds or rude. He just can’t stomach any criticism. TPSH blog is almost universally mocked on Kukla’s. The only time he gets more than 3 comments is when 10 of us are on their dismantling his confusing brand of logic. And then the petulant behavior and arrogant snark comes out. The last thread of his I participated in was related to him accusing the Flyers organization of unethical behavior related to the cap and IR rules.

The very first post presents very simple facts that provide a broader context to TPSH’s theory and, essentially, tears it down quite a bit. His response?

“Nitpicking at facts that often were not in the story does not change the fact….”

What? He takes umbrage that his readers might include facts that he himself was unaware of or chose to leave out. What these facts had in common was they all did undercut his theory. Apparently you’re only allowed to discuss the topic using the information he provides. This comment from him was really the last straw. In this thread, I made about 9 posts and only three are still shown. So he deleted a few of mine. Ironically, the last post I made was this:

“Please remove this post.” It was not removed.

I find this blogger to be thin-skinned, immature and unethical in how he hosts his threads. I also think that Kukla’s Korner should disassociate itself with it. It offers almost nothing useful and given the blogger’s obvious disdain for his readers, and the fact that this feeling is mutual, there is no reason to continue to give credibility to the guy at all.

His was the first and only blog I blocked when given the opportunity. In fact, Paul, when you first mentioned that you added that as a feature, that’s the first thing I thought of. Now I no longer get sucked in to reading his ridiculous posts about how sabermetrics shows that Jacob Kindl has the highest corsi rating for left handed scorpio defensemen in the Central Division who have had Lasik and also climb over the boards right leg first during a shift change. Calling something on the internet a literal waste of space sets a high bar, but TPSH has reached it.

Posted by awould on 10/26/11 at 01:47 PM ET

awould's avatar

Here’s something I think of when I get too annoyed on a blog or comments. It reminds me to shut up, and sometimes I actually do.

Posted by awould on 10/26/11 at 01:53 PM ET

TeamDub's avatar

Now I no longer get sucked in to reading his ridiculous posts about how sabermetrics shows that Jacob Kindl has the highest corsi rating for left handed scorpio defensemen in the Central Division who have had Lasik and also climb over the boards right leg first during a shift change.

Haha… that’s not too far off!

Posted by TeamDub from The gratch. on 10/26/11 at 01:57 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

So JJ still does not want to discuss hockey?

I for one am curious why he doesn’t want Dion Phaneuf on the Detroit Red Wings.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 10/26/11 at 01:57 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

I for one am curious why he doesn’t want Dion Phaneuf on the Detroit Red Wings.

This is not the main topic of the post above. Please keep your comments on-point.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/26/11 at 02:01 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

The point is JJ appears to not like not discussing hockey on a hockey blog.  Even with a many nudges in the direction of hockey he still wont go there.

Look I understand you have a man crush on me and want to discuss me all the time.  But I am not a hockey topic. grin

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 10/26/11 at 02:04 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

I will let my reputation around this blog and the hockey blogosphere in general speak to my willingness to discuss hockey topics.

The NHL is not the topic of this particular blog entry. The lack of integrity and general childishness shown by The Puck Stops Here is the topic.

I’ll let your accusation that I have a crush on you and your leap to a conclusion that the one blog entry I’ve posted to point out your reprehensible behavior is evidence that I want to discuss you all the time stand as evidence of this childishness.

Thank you for helping to prove my point.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 10/26/11 at 02:09 PM ET

Avatar

So JJ still does not want to discuss hockey?

Excuse me, but this is an article about your ridiculous need to delete and edit comments.  If you don’t want to talk about that, JJ is going to delete your comment.  (He’s a dick like that…)

Posted by Garth on 10/26/11 at 02:09 PM ET

Avatar

Even with a many nudges in the direction of hockey he still won’t go there.

Proper punctuation is important.

Posted by Garth on 10/26/11 at 02:10 PM ET

TeamDub's avatar

Wow, suddenly TPSH’s avatar seems like an absolute bullseye.

Weirdo.

Posted by TeamDub from The gratch. on 10/26/11 at 02:10 PM ET

Avatar

I for one am curious why he doesn’t want Dion Phaneuf on the Detroit Red Wings.

Probably because the Wings have an ACTUAL multiple-Norris winner, not someone who has played like crap for several years but is having a decent stretch of games to start the season.

Posted by Garth on 10/26/11 at 02:11 PM ET

bezukov's avatar

I stopped taking this guy seriously the day he was trolling us on Abel to Yzerman.  If his blog was a fan blog or a team based blog, I’d be alright taking a ribbing.  After all, half the fun in sports is having it out with the other team’s fans.  That’s fine.

However, the ethical situation is very different for a blogger who calls himself “a diehard hockey fan,” and makes commentary on the game at large.  If you aren’t going to declare your team allegiance, thats fine with me, but don’t troll the fan blogs.  That’s having it both ways.

I commented earlier this week how much I can’t stand the few individuals around the site who want to play coy about the team they root for, all while calling fans on this site who disagree with them biased.  That also is childish, and I can’t believe he was deleting/editing your comments JJ.  I guess that shows how much confidence he has in his opinions if he can’t stand anyone disagreeing with him.

Posted by bezukov from the kids are alright. on 10/26/11 at 02:13 PM ET

PuckStopsHere's avatar

Garth.  The Red Wings also have Mike Commodore and players of his ilk.  Phaneuf is better and its not even close.

See this is hockey discussion.  Too bad JJ doesn’t like it.

Posted by PuckStopsHere on 10/26/11 at 02:14 PM ET

awould's avatar

Look I understand you have a man crush on me and want to discuss me all the time.  But I am not a hockey topic.

that’s a weird response to all this.

I think JJ’s issue is that he, and many others, find it necessary to first discuss logic and your dubious use of statistics before any hockey talk can begin. you plant your flag firmly in a tiny corner you’ve created and for some reason you believe your logic to be ironclad and impenetrable when usually it is weak and leaky. you will not listen to reason or any other opinions that don’t conform to your own conclusion. you resort to snark and personal attacks and then attempt to take the high road by bringing up the “hockey talk” defense, as though the power of your logic has caused all your readers to cower into a lower form of communication and, if they were truly serious, they would keep it on topic. And by “on topic”, you typically mean “agree with me”.

Posted by awould on 10/26/11 at 02:14 PM ET

mrfluffy's avatar

TPSH- You’re actually Ryan Lambert, aren’t you?

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 10/26/11 at 02:14 PM ET

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