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I NOW Consider Tim Thomas A Hall Of Famer

I have spent the last 25 or more years trying to answer the question of at what point in a player’s career does he establish himself as a sure-fire Hall of Famer regardless of what happens in the rest of his career.  Today I am saying that Tim Thomas has reached that threshold. 

Thomas has won a remarkable number of awards in his career.  He is a two time Vezina Trophy winner.  He was last season’s Conn Smythe Trophy winner as he led his Boston team to the Stanley Cup.  Twice he has won the Roger Crozier Saving Grace award for best saves percentage.  Once he shared in the William Jennings Trophy for the goaltenders of the team with the fewest goals allowed.  That amount of awards won is quite good for a Hall of Famer.  The question is the shortness of his career.  Thomas has fewer than 400 career NHL games.  He has only regularly played in the NHL since 2005 (he also played four games in the 2002/03 season).

Last season was a historic season for Thomas.  He set an NHL record for the highest saves percentage ever with a .938 saves percentage.  He set a record for the most saves ever made in the Stanley Cup playoffs as he led the Bruins to the Stanley Cup and won the Conn Smythe.  Though he failed to receive a Hart Trophy nomination, I argue that he should have won.  Looking at the season as a whole, I think it is clear that he was the best player in hockey in the 2010/11 season.  It is rare that a goalie does that well.  As long as it isn’t a fluke season and Thomas has a solid prime he is a Hall of Famer.  He already had a Vezina Trophy to his name before that season, so that put him very close to that threshold.  All he had to do to cement hall of Fame status is to have another solid season this year. 

He has done that by playing in the All Star Game.  Thomas was the only player voted into the game who was not an example of Ontario area hockey fans stuffing the ballot boxes for the game in Ottawa.  This was Thomas’s fourth straight All Star Game.  Further it was his fourth straight All Star Game victory.  That is a record.  While the All Star Game is not taken seriously, those who hold career records in All Star Games are some of the best players of all time.  They have to be in order to get into enough games to set an all time record.

It is very unlikely that Thomas will have a long NHL career.  He was 30 before his first year as an NHL regular began.  He was 31 before his first year as an NHL starter.  He is currently 37 years old.  Likely his career will be relatively short due to its late start.  One wonders what might have happened if Thomas was identified as an NHL-level goalie earlier in his life.  Would he have been ready?  Would his dominance have started earlier in his life?

Thomas is best compared to Johnny Bower.  Bower is a Hall of Fame goalie.  He was 34 before he got a regular NHL job in the six team NHL.  He had a long successful career in the minors before that happened.  While in the NHL, Bower won the Vezina Trophy twice and the Stanley Cup four times.  He was never MVP of the playoffs, though he had strong playoff numbers.  He retired with 552 NHL games played.  Thomas has matched his Vezina numbers (though the definition of the Vezina Trophy has changed in the meantime).  It is a reasonable debate as to which of the two has been a better playoff goalie.  Bower has more Stanley Cups won (though in a six team NHL that is easier to do than in a 30 team league) and more games played in the playoffs at this point, but he cannot match Thomas`s numbers or his single playoff season success from last year.

Tim Thomas`s 2010/11 season was so good that it is a reasonable debate to call it the best season a goaltender has ever had in the NHL.  While I would argue against that point that level of success in the short term coupled with a longer career that includes a second Vezina Trophy and four All Star Game appearances is enough for me to call Tim Thomas a Hall of Famer.

That increases our list of currently active Hall of Famers to fifteen players.  Here they are:

Daniel Alfredsson
Martin Brodeur
Zdeno Chara
Sidney Crosby
Sergei Fedorov
Dominik Hasek
Jarome Iginla
Jaromir Jagr
Nicklas Lidstrom
Alexander Ovechkin
Chris Pronger
Martin St Louis
Teemu Selanne
Tim Thomas
Joe Thornton

Some of these player`s claims to being active are getting a bit tenuous.  Dominik Hasek is taking the year off from hockey and claims he will play professionally next season.  That may be a prelude to his permanent retirement.  Chris Pronger is on the longterm injured reserve for the Philadelphia Flyers and will be out at least the rest of this season.  The Flyers have retired several players with troublesome contracts in this fashion and it looks like Pronger is likely to go that direction. 

Of course as more hockey is played this season it is likely that there will be more players joining this group.

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Comments

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I agree with your entire list except Tim Thomas.  He’s played 343 NHL games with 174 wins.  That’s 81st all time between Daren Puppa and Bob Essensa.  There are goalies with 343 WINS who won’t be in the Hall.  Unless Thomas keeps up the stats for several more years he will be buying a ticket to get into the Hall just like the rest of us.

Posted by Robert from Canada on 01/30/12 at 06:21 PM ET

Nathan's avatar

Robert, I agree with you that he probably won’t get into the HHOF unless he bumps his win total significantly. But the more important argument is that this is wrong.

Goalies shouldn’t be judged for individual accolades, such as induction to the HHOF, based on a team stat like wins. Judging a goalie by wins is probably a pretty good proxy for judging if that keeper was at least an above average goalie. But that’s about it.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 01/30/12 at 06:33 PM ET

The Hurricane's avatar

Uh, you are missing Pavel Datsyuk on that list. ..and I am unsure how Crosby is….

Posted by The Hurricane on 01/30/12 at 06:50 PM ET

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Yeah, ~6 years from now we’ll have a really interesting case with Thomas. This past stretch of four years for him in my mind is either the most dominant or second most dominant four-year stretch by a goalie of all time (Hasek late 90s was outstanding).

Posted by Ralph on 01/30/12 at 06:51 PM ET

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He is HOF worthy in my book.  He has been fantastic the past few years, and does not really show signs of slowing down.  It will be interesting how his stats play out with Rask also playing well.

Posted by gretzky_to_lemieux on 01/30/12 at 07:04 PM ET

Nathan's avatar

Uh, you are missing Pavel Datsyuk on that list. ..and I am unsure how Crosby is….

Posted by The Hurricane on 01/30/12 at 03:50 PM ET

C’mon dude, I love Pav, obviously, but let’s be real. Pav has a career PPG of 1, and Crosby is at 1.4.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 01/30/12 at 07:06 PM ET

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PSH, as something of a statistics guy I’m interested in your take on Martin Brodeur. Yes, he’s the all-time wins/shutouts leader and has four Vezinas, but for the most part it seems the typical hockey sabremetrician’s take on him is that he has mainly been an above-average goalie—occasionally top 5 in the league, but usually more like 10-15—whose accomplishments owe more to longevity, games played and team strength than individual skill.

Certainly, I would say that of his four Vezina trophies, the first two (2003 and 2004) were rubbish (Brodeur shouldn’t have even been nominated), the third (2007) he was one of two legitimate nominees (though I still would have given the award to Luongo), and the fourth (2008) he was one of several legitimate nominees (though I think he probably was the right choice).

I see you don’t have a link for Brodeur’s name on your list, so I take it you must have considered him a Hall of Famer even before you began blogging. Frankly, I didn’t consider him deserving of the hall until about 2008 (even though I knew he was already a lock in the real world).

Posted by Sven22 from Grand Rapids on 01/30/12 at 07:18 PM ET

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I don’t see ovechkin belonging there yet.

Posted by teldar on 01/30/12 at 07:22 PM ET

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Interesting list.

I agree with the inclusion of Tim Thomas. I may not like his politics but his on ice performance puts him beyond question.

Not sure I get why Ovechkin is on this list. No Cup wins, no playoff MVP, not even a standout playoff performance, on an off-year, and now with valid questions about his ability to lead a team to a championship.

Now, Datsyuk I would put on the list… he’s basically the anti-Ovechkin when it comes to HOF consideration.

Last one: as much as I like Joe Thornton - and I do - can someone explain how he makes a HOF list?

Posted by Ian on 01/30/12 at 08:31 PM ET

The Hurricane's avatar

Correct me if I am wrong, but HOF inclusion should also include international involvement and contributions. Datsyuk has changed the game of hockey, not just here, but around the world. Crosby is a pin-up girl for Bettman’s investor group. SOME of his numbers are wonderful, but let’s not get too excited….CAREER stats matter. His is not a career yet. If the kid continues to play and play well he will most certainly make the Hall.

DEF agree that Ovechkin is a reach and Joe Thornton is a head scratcher too….I’d put Forsberg ahead of either (and it hurts to say that.)

Interesting arguments all around tho, and I concur that Thomas is on the path towards immortality…heck, I might even vote for the guy for president if he decides to run wink

Posted by The Hurricane on 01/30/12 at 08:52 PM ET

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Datsyuk has changed the game of hockey, not just here, but around the world.
Posted by The Hurricane on 01/30/12 at 05:52 PM ET

How so?

Posted by NathanBC on 01/30/12 at 09:10 PM ET

Gary A$$ SUCK !!'s avatar

Crosby Really (no way) ??? Tim Thomas no way!!! Peter Forsberg Hell YES..!!

Posted by Gary A$$ SUCK !! from Fort Myers, Florida on 01/30/12 at 09:10 PM ET

mrfluffy's avatar

You have Ovechkin on there but not Datsyuk. That’s just…bizarre…

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 01/30/12 at 09:14 PM ET

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Ovie (along with Sid) has that Sandy Koufax thing going for him….the absolute domination over a condensed period…even if he specifically doesn’t have the playoff cred yet.  I’d argue Lecavlier, Datsyuk, Hossa, and Kovalchuk are already there.  Malkin, if he continues at the pace he’s going this season, is in too.

Posted by Andy on 01/30/12 at 09:36 PM ET

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Thorton on the list and no Datsyuk?  My incredulity has peaked.  I especially like Thorton’s -28 career playoff +/- mark, including a stellar -20 for the past 3 years combined.

Posted by Valek from Chicago on 01/30/12 at 09:39 PM ET

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Sorry, -19 for the last three years in the playoffs for Thorton.  He’s much better than I gave him credit for.  rolleyes

Posted by Valek from Chicago on 01/30/12 at 09:41 PM ET

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Datsyuk has changed the game of hockey, not just here, but around the world. Crosby is a pin-up girl for Bettman’s investor group. SOME of his numbers are wonderful, but let’s not get too excited….CAREER stats matter.

This is just bizarre all around. The implication that Datsyuk changed hockey in the NHL, let alone the world, is completely unsubstantiated. Then a criticism of Sidney Crosby is made that would be better applied to Datsyuk (unimpressive career stats). Dunno if you checked, but, considering

a) Crosby has about 100 less points in 300 less games. He would need ~ four straight 75 game 30 point seasons to drop to Datsyuk’s allegedly more impressive point totals. This would represent a pace roughly equivalent to 1/5 his per-game production to date. Not even a 90 year old Guy Lafleur with shot knees had that big a dropoff
b) Crosby has 15 less playoff points in HALF the games played

I’m gonna say you didn’t.

There might be good arguments for why Datsyuk belongs in the hall (personal opinion: if he gets to 1000 points, he should be a first ballot inductee. Just my opinion.) and good arguments for why Crosby doesn’t (for instance, that he might have the lowest game played total of any non-goalie there), but “look at Datsyuk’s 2012 career numbers vs. Crosby’s 2012 career numbers” is as terrible a way of trying to demonstrating that viewpoint as I can imagine.

Posted by larry from pitt on 01/30/12 at 09:45 PM ET

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On this list, you seem to be doing 2 things: Having players that are at the end of their long successful careers and looking at their numbers and say, yes they have done enough to get in (Iggy, Brodeur, Lidstrom, Jagr). On the other hand, you are also looking at players and projecting wether you think they will make the HoF based on their current stats and projecting them over their career.

You need to eliminate the second part of this equation.
If Crosby and Ovie were to retire today (Say Sid’d neck gets broken, or Ovie decides to finish his career as a bum slayer in the KHL for trillions of Russian monies) neither of them would be HoF worthy.

Posted by Sean on 01/30/12 at 09:48 PM ET

The Hurricane's avatar

HHOF is absolutely a passion issue. I respect that many will disagree with MY opinions and will use their own numbers to satisfy their positions. Numbers aside, Datsyuk’s gameplay and STYLE of stick handling not only changed the entire western sport, but had an impact in Russian leagues as well. With all the talk about no more tough guy goons in the league in favor of a talented 2 way player who can embarrass you at both ends of the rink…you have to at least look to Datsyuk as one of the key components into that transition.

His is a career…one not borne in numbers but in the back of the head of every player he faces. When you ask Igor Larionov who the best hockey player alive is….his answer is the one you pay attention to.

The sport is different now. Crosby is a talent, sure…it’s just not legendary talent….yet. He’s a poster. He’s a bobble head night to increase attendance and a face to put on a box of cereal. He’s just not the player EVERY other NHLer wakes up in the middle of the night wishing they could solve.

I would argue that Forsberg has also done more for the sport and is a greater rep to the Hall than Crosby, but again…I respect the kid’s talent….we’ll see what happens when he grows up.

Posted by The Hurricane on 01/30/12 at 10:43 PM ET

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Numbers aside, Datsyuk’s gameplay and STYLE of stick handling not only changed the entire western sport, but had an impact in Russian leagues as well.

This is all in your head.

The KHL and its junior leagues are not producing (or really employing) players who play a similar, high-in-the-zone, intercept game as Datsyuk. It’s just something no Russian prospects do, except, perhaps, Kuznetsov, but Kuznetsov’s closest NHL stylistic comparable would be a smaller MALKIN, not Datsyuk. Does that mean Malkin changed Russian hockey forever (I’m going to let this Western thing go because it’s so crazy)? Nope. No more than Jean Beliveau changed hockey by inspiring Mario Lemieux to be tall. Good players tend to have some things in common.

And revolutionizing stickhandling? Really? Russians have been known for being on the cutting edge of stickhandling skill since the 60s. Russian youth hockey didn’t spontaneously decide to start doing stick drills when Datsyuk had his first good season five or six years ago. Kovalev was dancing the NHL’s best players in the SCF when Datsyuk was on a peewee team in the middle of nowhere.

Incidentally, here are the most-important Russian hockey players according to Russians.

http://www.russianmachineneverbreaks.com/2010/02/24/russian-lessons-part-iii-who-is-the-most-popular-hockey-player-in-russia/

Datsyuk’s fifth. Hardly the stuff that revolutionizes a hockey culture, let alone the world.

What you’re saying is as silly as trying to say Mike Gartner changed the world because he taught Canadians the value of being fast—something they allegedly didn’t already know and clearly weren’t trying to achieve. This notion is crazy.


“The sport is different now. Crosby is a talent, sure…it’s just not legendary talent….yet. He’s a poster. He’s a bobble head night to increase attendance and a face to put on a box of cereal. He’s just not the player EVERY other NHLer wakes up in the middle of the night wishing they could solve.”

Dude, you just have no idea what you’re talking about. You use a stats argument that suggests the opposite of the conclusion you want, change your mind when you realize your mistake, say stats don’t matter and move onto reputation hoping something that can’t be quantified can make your point. Unfortunately reputation can be measured and your new argument flunks too.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/allstar/poll/


Datsyuk is good. Inarguably one of the top 2 players in the game today that aren’t on injured reserve. You don’t need to lie about him or anyone else just to make him seem valuable. The guy’s already the real deal. He doesn’t need you revising reality.

Posted by larry from pitt on 01/31/12 at 12:25 AM ET

perfection's avatar

forget Datsyuk’s offensive numbers (which are still really respectable), he is the best puck stealer who has ever played the game of hockey in the history of the world… and it seems nobody who ever faces him disagrees. he deserves to be in the hall for the sheer elegance of his takeaways alone. that shit is art.

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 01/31/12 at 05:53 AM ET

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C’mon dude, I love Pav, obviously, but let’s be real. Pav has a career PPG of 1, and Crosby is at 1.4.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 01/30/12 at 04:06 PM ET

For comparison’s sake, look at Jacques Lemaire and Bob Gainey. Winning 3 Selkes, 4 Lady Bings and 2 Stanley Cups will get Datsyuk into the hall, especially with his PPG.

Posted by Guy Incognitus on 01/31/12 at 12:49 PM ET

Nathan's avatar

Fellow Wings fans… it pains me to side with a guy named Larry from Pittsburgh raspberry, but Larry is spot on on this argument.

First thing—Larry’s not bagging on Pav. He’s actually giving Pav a lot of due. The only thing I really disagree with him on is when he says Pav is one of the top 2 players in the game not on IR—I think he’s THE top player not on IR. smile But that’s splitting hairs.

Second thing—let’s talk about Crosby. Crosby is absolutely a premier talent. Not just untapped potential. Certainly, he’s so young that there is still untapped potential, but even if his concussion issues end his career, he’s already produced one of the best stretches of peak performance in hockey history.

As someone said arguing on Pav’s behalf, you have to look at international and overall performance, and Crosby has successes here as well. He has won just about every prestigious award available at every level he’s played at. On international ice, he’s won a WJC and Olympic Gold. The only international accolade he’ll probably never win is a WC, and that’s because if he gets healthy, he’s too good to ever be on a team that would miss the playoffs or bow out early enough for him to play there.

There are very few players whose career peaks match what Crosby has produced since his rookie season. And there are even fewer that have produced that highly from the start of their career.

Third thing—Datsyuk deserves the HHOF as well, in my opinion. I don’t think he’s “changed the game” the way described above, but I think in a more general sense, he’s certainly changed the NHL (or maybe more accurately, been the sterling example of a change the NHL has undergone, whether he was a player or not).

Given the era, Pav does have very, very good offensive numbers. He’s a 0.99 PPG player. And despite early struggles, he’s turned into a premier playoff scorer as well. He doesn’t have truly great offensive numbers among his peers, but he’s deservedly right at the top of that second tier, behind a very short list of players ahead of him.

The offense alone is not HHOF caliber. I don’t think anyone is arguing that here, and anyone that does is a bit off-base, IMO. His defensive play, however, is enough to vault him to HHOF credentials. This is where I think, while he hasn’t changed the game, he’s been THE player that best exemplifies the change in the NHL. Maybe it was due to the cap and added parity, maybe it was due to a change in coaching philosophy, but no player has better exemplified and performed in the position of top line center entrusted in all situations. Something changed in the league that demanded scoring line centers to be able to defend, and Pav is the perfect example of this balance in his game.

If you look at players that were similarly skillful all over the rink, Pav looks like a HHOF’r:

- Sergei Fedorov: not in yet, but most agree he will get in easily. Sergei had better peak offensive numbers, but Pavel appears to be aging better. On the margins, both players were/are essentially PPG players.

- Bob Gainey: a very serviceable offensive player that may have had better numbers if he had played on a team that needed him in that role. But the bottom line is he was a point-every-other-game player and made the HHOF on his defensive acumen. Datsyuk is the better offensive talent and while maybe not the straight-up checker Gainey was, his defensive performance certainly has to be comparable.

- Jacques Lemaire: Gainey’s linemate—essentially a consistent PPG player like Pav throughout his career, and played on a line tasked with defensive assignments. Gainey took the lion’s share, but Lemaire was very good defensively and much better offensively than Gainey. He might be more comparable to Datsyuk due to a better balance between his offensive and defensive performances. And he is in the Hall.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 01/31/12 at 12:49 PM ET

Nathan's avatar

Posted by Guy Incognitus on 01/31/12 at 09:49 AM ET

Yikes, good thinking. I was typing my post when you posted that. smile

And obviously, if you look at my last post, you’ll see I never meant Pav wasn’t a legitimate HHOF player, but to put him “over” Crosby isn’t really fair. Defense is critical, but the transcendent offensive talents of the game get the accolades because they deserve it. Even with Wayne Gretzky, the assists are impressive, but the real accomplishment is the over 900 professional goals. Goals win games, period, and more credit should be awarded to forwards who create them in spades than those that prevent them.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 01/31/12 at 12:53 PM ET

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To all those saying Forsberg should be on this list, are you forgetting that he is retired and this is a list of active players?

I also agree with a previous poster that the list should be reduced to players that would make the Hall if they retired today. If you’re going to go by career projections there are quite a few more players to be added:

Hossa
Kovalchuk
(both of those just seem weird to say but numbers don’t lie)
Lecavalier (who has more points than St Louis, who is on the list, despite being 5 years younger)
Sedins

Also worth noting is that Sergei Gonchar has more career points than Pronger does, though he certainly was never the defensive force Pronger was.

Posted by Guy Incognitus on 01/31/12 at 01:03 PM ET

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@Sven22 - It is known as the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the Hockey Hall of Applied Statistical Analysis.  But, hey, we all know that great players are truly judged by Sabremetrics and not, say, results.  Anyway, it isn’t your strange assessment of HHOF worthiness that I want to respond to, but rather this ridiculous nugget of stupidity:

Certainly, I would say that of his four Vezina trophies, the first two (2003 and 2004) were rubbish (Brodeur shouldn’t have even been nominated),

Are you on crack?  He lead the league in saves, wins, games played, and minutes played both seasons.  His GAA and SP were in the top three and statistically indistinguishable from the leaders.

He won the Jennings both years (shared in 02/03) and was the first team all-star goalie both times.

Was Brodeur the best goalie in hockey both of those years?  I think so, but Turco was awesome at the time and you could certainly argue that he was the better tender over that stretch.  To suggest that Brodeur didn’t even deserve the nomination, though, is one of the dumbest things I’ve read in a while.

But, hey, you know way better than those idiot General Managers and know-nothing representatives of the Professional Hockey Writers’ Association, don’t you?

Posted by Jim from Barrie on 01/31/12 at 03:07 PM ET

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Posted by Jim from Barrie on 01/31/12 at 12:07 PM ET

I’m not going to get into a huge Brodeur debate, but saves, wins, games played and minutes played are all basically meaningless measures of goalie performance. Games and minutes played are more a matter of “does your team have an adequate backup?” and saves and wins are a matter of “did you play a lot of games on a good team?” GAA isn’t totally meaningless, but if your team doesn’t allow a lot of shots (like New Jersey did back in those days), it’s easy for an average goalie to get a good GAA.

Brodeur’s 2003 victory seems to be based purely on the fact that he won the most games. Start 73 times for the fourth-best team in the league, and you’re going to compile a lot of wins, even if you’re an average goalie. (Brodeur was better than average, but I would say he was not elite at that time.) Simply getting a lot of starts is not a “skill.” It’s a matter of coaching and personnel. Why should Brodeur get the credit for that?

Marty Turco had light years better numbers (.932 vs. .914 save percentage, for starters), but he wasn’t the only one. Roloson, Chechmanek, Belfour, Roy and Giguere all played much better than Brodeur, and I would argue that Kolzig, Luongo and Vokoun were better as well.

In 2004, I think Roberto Luongo was the obvious choice for the Vezina (.931 save percentage in 72 starts behind a terrible defense), but voters were unwilling to select a goaltender with a losing record on a terrible team. Brodeur is closer to “my” podium here, but I’d still would have put at least Nabokov and Theodore, and maaaybe Andrew Raycroft (I know, looks silly now, but he was great that one year) ahead of Brodeur.

Perhaps let me give you my overall take on Brodeur:

I think he is a hall of fame goalie, who was legitimately one of the best goalies in the game at least for a few years after the lockout. But I think he is nowhere near the best goalie of all time. Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy, Glenn Hall, Jacques Plante are the sort of guys I would put on that pedestal. Brodeur I would put in the next tier down, with guys like Belfour, Sawchuk, Esposito.

Posted by Sven22 from Grand Rapids on 01/31/12 at 04:00 PM ET

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His GAA and SP were in the top three and statistically indistinguishable from the leaders

Also, I don’t know where you’re getting this. Brodeur’s save percentage was well off the lead in both years.

Posted by Sven22 from Grand Rapids on 01/31/12 at 04:12 PM ET

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Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 01/31/12 at 09:49 AM ET

See, this is a good case for why Pavel Datsyuk belongs in the hall of fame. I would personally still want to see him get within spitting distance of 1000 pts; personal preference, though I think it’s a foregone conclusion that he will, tbh. But this is definitely a legit case.

Not this silly business about sick Russian stick skills being attributable to a guy who wasn’t even alive when the world noticed half the Red Army forwards could auto-dangle onrushers with behind the back, around the opponent self-passes.

Posted by larry from pitt on 01/31/12 at 08:47 PM ET

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Regarding Crosby and Ovechkin, only three players who have won the Hart have not made the HOF: Anderson, Rollins, and Lindros. Now, you could make a case that because Lindros hasn’t gotten in, Ovechkin and Crosby wouldn’t right now, either, but I think it bears mentioning that they were the poster boys for the league coming out of the lockout. Each of them has loads of hardware, including at least one Pearson/Lindsay, Hart, Ross, and Richard each. They still rank among all-time leaders at this point despite one of the lowest-scoring eras.

If either retires right now, they’re in, no question.

Posted by Ralph on 02/01/12 at 02:40 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

So did we decide if Tim Thomas is a HOFer or not here?

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 02/01/12 at 02:49 PM ET

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imageThe Puck Stops Here was founded during the 2004/05 lockout as a place to rant about hockey. The original site contains over 1000 posts, some of which were also published on FoxSports.com.

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