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What About The “Loser” Points & Shootout Wins During Detroit’s Winning Streak?

from Sean Gordon of the Globe and Mail,

The first team to pull off that long a string was Boston (1929-30) and matched by the Broad Street Bullies in 1976-77 – aka: The Good Old Days for Philly fans, and an era that has seen their team crushed by the big celestial wheel of what-comes-around-goes-around in every season since.

Except…both those teams pulled off the feat without the assistance of loser points.

The Wings, you see, have won four of their 19 straight in overtime or the shootout.

So in terms of the rules in 1976 or 1930 – in other words, ties – it would be an undefeated streak, which isn’t quite the same thing as a winning streak.

read on

from Greg Wyshynski of Puck Daddy,

During the Wings’ streak, which reached 20 with a 4-3 win over the Philadelphia Flyers on Sunday, they’ve outscored their opponents 84-30. Starting goalie Jimmy Howard missed the last three home games, and yet the streak’s alive — with a chance at making history at home on Tuesday night against the Dallas Stars.

“Ooooooh, but is it reeeallly history?” proclaim the “consider the circumstances” crowd, like our boy Brian Stubits on CBS Eye on Hockey. After all, three of the Red Wings’ wins came in the shootout. The Flyers and Bruins had no such opportunity for hollow, counterfeit victories!

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Filed in: NHL Teams, Detroit Red Wings, | KK Hockey | Permalink
 

Comments

42jeff's avatar

Oh Whysh shut the hell up…you’re such a douc…wait…what?

Puckdaddy DEFENDING the Wings?

What next…dogs and cats sleeping together?

Just wow.

Posted by 42jeff from The greater Howard City, MI metroplex on 02/13/12 at 12:20 PM ET

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I’d say any streak like this that the team gets a shootout victory should not be counted.  Before the lockout you had to win games when there could be a tie.  now that’s not a possibility so winning streak is not the same.

Posted by tbassett on 02/13/12 at 12:27 PM ET

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Posted by tbassett on 02/13/12 at 09:27 AM ET

If we do that then how many Montreal Canadiens Stanley Cup victories do we discount?  Because in 1930, they beat the Bruins 2 games to none in the Finals, and it’s a lot easier to win two games than four, so they shouldn’t count.

Also, Boston’s streak shouldn’t count because it included games against four teams that don’t exist anymore!

I’m sure the Red Wings could rack up 50-60 wins in a row if they were playing teams that were imaginary.

Posted by Garth on 02/13/12 at 12:35 PM ET

Mandingo's avatar

Before the lockout you had to win games when there could be a tie.  now that’s not a possibility so winning streak is not the same.

Posted by tbassett on 02/13/12 at 09:27 AM ET

You still have to win games, though. Just because a tie is not an option, that doesn’t mean losing isn’t an option either. I think that’s the thing people are being a little dishonest about when it comes to that line of argument.

I also don’t understand why those who take issue with the record are all either very evasive when it comes to the fact that there was OT in the Bruins case, or are straight up wrong/lying about it. From my understanding, there was a 10-minute OT period back then, correct me if I’m wrong.

All that said, I do believe it is somewhat different and that the Flyers record is more impressive because it was all done in regulation.

This is one of those rare situations where I can see the argument from both sides.

Either way, who gives a crap? Those 40 points still count, right?

Posted by Mandingo from The Garage on 02/13/12 at 12:35 PM ET

Nathan's avatar

It really isn’t that big of a deal. It is nice when your team adds something positive to the history books, but the bottom line is that we are happiest because it means they’ve gotten 40 out of 40 possible points in the last 20 games at the Joe. If they don’t win at least a few playoff rounds, we’ll be disappointed, and this record will just be something we look back on as “cute” in 10 or 20 years.

What I will say is that I think the achievement is a lot more comparable than many are making it out to be. Yes, the Wings have had the benefit of extra time and shootouts forcing games that even just a few years ago would’ve likely been ties to come to a W/L decision. The talent pool is thinned out more—the Bs and Flyers probably had more games against really good teams in their 20 game streaks. But on the other side of the coin, the Wings endure a longer and far more compressed schedule, with way more travel. As the old adage goes, the hardest games to win are the first home game after a long road trip—and the road trips are a lot longer than they’ve ever been, and often times it seems like you are playing every other night, with no chance to adjust to time zone changes.

All three teams did it in different eras and all three are very impressive for reasons that you can argue are distinct to the given era. There’s no need to crown one of the three as the best.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 02/13/12 at 12:36 PM ET

42jeff's avatar

I’d say any streak like this that the team gets a shootout victory should not be counted.  Before the lockout you had to win games when there could be a tie.  now that’s not a possibility so winning streak is not the same.
Posted by tbassett on 02/13/12 at 09:27 AM ET

Right.  So do we * every single record that is tied or broken after any rule change?  Red lines moved, goalies and the trapezoid, two line passing, goalie equipment restrictions, no line changes after icings, blah blah blah.  And lets not forget about team point records…because now with the three point games the point totals are all skewed.  And what about not having ties at all?  Now total win records in the season have to be astericked as well as total losses because it’s now possible for teams to lose games that they would have normally left tied.

Just accept the record for what it is for crying out loud and quit being butt hurt because it’s not your team setting the record for crying out loud.

Posted by 42jeff from The greater Howard City, MI metroplex on 02/13/12 at 12:38 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

What about the lack of free agency in 1975-76 and the fact that two teams dominated a weaker overall league?

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 02/13/12 at 12:46 PM ET

bezukov's avatar

IMHO the ‘29 Bruins and ‘76 Flyers weren’t up against the same level of talent night after night the way NHL teams are in today’s game.  Even in the last twenty years we’ve seen the talent of the average NHLer increase in a game where the checking is tighter than ever and the overall speed of the game is faster.  When I watch vintage NHL games it can look like they are playing in slow motion in comparison.

If its fair to say that the Wings are benefitting from the modern rules, its fair to say that the Bruins and the Flyers benefitted from a level of bottom feeding that the Red Wings haven’t gotten to enjoy on their streak.  Also, although I wouldn’t say this for the ‘76 Flyers (those guys were universally despised), I question if the ‘29 Bruins played with targets on their back the way the Wings do every night.

So the equation balances out if you ask me, and my hat is off to Wyshinski (can’t believe I’m saying that) for adding some common sense to this debate.  Each era of the sport had its own set of challenges, to try and pick one over the other is an exercise in absurdity.  The most objective tool for measuring we have is the W column, and the Wing’s streak speaks for itself.

Posted by bezukov from the kids are alright. on 02/13/12 at 12:49 PM ET

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So in terms of the rules in 1976 or 1930 – in other words, ties – it would be an undefeated streak, which isn’t quite the same thing as a winning streak.

Here’s the thing.  It’s not 1976.  It’s not 1930.  It’s 2012, and the Red Wings have earn 40 out of a possible 40 points in the last 20 home games.

Sorry, there’s no other phrase but “winning streak”.

Posted by Garth on 02/13/12 at 12:58 PM ET

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From my understanding, there was a 10-minute OT period back then, correct me if I’m wrong.

I wonder if anyone has done the research to see if the Bruins won any of their games in the second half of the overtime period, because if so?  ASTERISK!!!!!

Posted by Garth on 02/13/12 at 12:59 PM ET

Down River Dan's avatar

The team is not making a big deal out of this. The media? well they need something to drone on about. The wings don’t make the schedule or the rules, they just play the games, and shootout or overtime aside, they have won 20 in a row.

As they say in golf, “they don’t ask how…..just how many?”

Posted by Down River Dan on 02/13/12 at 01:11 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

OT back in 29-30 wasn’t sudden death.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 02/13/12 at 01:14 PM ET

Primis's avatar

it means they’ve gotten 40 out of 40 possible points in the last 20 games at the Joe.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 02/13/12 at 09:36 AM ET

Exactly what I said on Twitter.  40 out of 40.  What else matters?

Posted by Primis on 02/13/12 at 01:24 PM ET

Alan's avatar

My question is, why are those writers trying to re-define what a win really is?

Must be another slow news Monday.

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 02/13/12 at 01:51 PM ET

42jeff's avatar

My question is, why are those writers trying to re-define what a win really is?
Must be another slow news Monday.
Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 02/13/12 at 10:51 AM ET

Sweet sweet jealousy

Posted by 42jeff from The greater Howard City, MI metroplex on 02/13/12 at 02:11 PM ET

Alan's avatar

Sweet sweet jealousy

[img=“http://dj4aces.info/stuff/pics/tastytears.gif”]

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 02/13/12 at 02:18 PM ET

Alan's avatar

Obviously, it’s been so long since I’ve embedded pics that I’ve forgotten how.

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 02/13/12 at 02:19 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Obviously, it’s been so long since I’ve embedded pics that I’ve forgotten how.

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 02/13/12 at 11:19 AM ET

(You forgot to put src before the “=”)

Preview is a lifesaver in image posting around here.  Always good to make sure it shows up right in preview before posting.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 02/13/12 at 02:47 PM ET

42jeff's avatar

(You forgot to put src before the “=”)
Preview is a lifesaver in image posting around here.  Always good to make sure it shows up right in preview before posting.
Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 02/13/12 at 11:47 AM ET

You can also just post the URL straight into your post I’ve found

Posted by 42jeff from The greater Howard City, MI metroplex on 02/13/12 at 03:09 PM ET

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if anything i think the shootouts and loser points makes a significant winning streak harder.  I think teams are clearly playing for overtime in tied third periods.  And games are decided based on short 4on4 sudden death period or a silly 3 player per team skills competition which are significantly different then the rest of the game.

If shootouts somehow make it easier to win games, please explain why no other team has come close to this mark, or the most wins in a season mark post lockout. 

I agree with Wyshinski for once.  its great we acknowledge that there are different eras and its hard to directly compare any statistics, but that hardly takes anything away from the wings accomplishment.  They have the best home winning streak of the current era of nhl hockey

Posted by jwad on 02/13/12 at 03:20 PM ET

Alan's avatar

(You forgot to put src before the “=”)

Just goes to show how long it’s been since I’ve written anything in HTML! Thanks for the refresher!

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 02/13/12 at 03:34 PM ET

SYF's avatar

Win the Cup.  The record’s cute but win the Cup.  The ‘96-‘96 Wings were a record-setting club (yeah, remember those fuching arguments???) as well and we got our asses handed to us by the Devils in the SCFs.

The Wings were nonchalant about it as they should.  There’s a bigger prize at the end.

Posted by SYF from the team that re-signed KFQ and DFC by KFH on 02/13/12 at 03:42 PM ET

phillyd's avatar

I think it’s harder to have a winning streak of this length with the current rules. 4on4 and shootout give a greater opportunity to lose a game versus the old way. Remember, back in the old days, teams got to OT then pretty much played catch so as not to lose the point a tie would give.

Posted by phillyd from Southern New Jersey on 02/13/12 at 04:06 PM ET

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It’s all sour grapes from anyone saying asterisk at this point.  Most of their arguments make it sound like once the Wings got past regulation losing wasn’t an option.  The game is totally different now as compared to the 70’s as compared to the late 20’s.  Unless someone has a time machine handy, there’s no way to say which of the three teams had a tougher time getting 20 home wins in a row.

Posted by Valek from Chicago on 02/13/12 at 04:21 PM ET

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If winning streaks are so much easier now with shootouts and overtime, then why haven’t other teams done this already?

You play with the rules you have.

In thirty years we can look back and see if streaks like this happen more often with the shootout, an expanded league, different fitness standards, a deeper international talent pool, the salary cap, better goal tending, no red line, the trapezoid, etc, etc. If we have half a dozen teams who’ve matched it then we can safely say it’s easier to do now, but if it doesn’t get matched or maybe gets matched once, then we can probably say it’s about equally difficult.

I agree with Wysh. There isn’t much point in nitpicking records. Every era is different.

Twenty home wins in a row, even with a skills competition determining a couple of those, is pretty impressive to me. But it ain’t no Stanley Cup.

Posted by anony2 on 02/13/12 at 04:48 PM ET

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20 wins in a row, 40 points out of a possible 40 points.  Last time it happened was over 30 years ago.

If people think the league should toss an asterisk beside the number who cares.  I could give a faux about what the media thinks is fair.  If it was a Canadian team, the Globe and Mail would be ALL OVER it…An American team?  With a Swedish captain?  “Nope, shouldn’t count”.

That’s crap.

Posted by JHVR on 02/13/12 at 06:27 PM ET

UMFan's avatar

I’m pretty sure if one looked hard enough you could find a reason to put an asterisk along side all records in all sports. The home win streak is cute, but really all that counts is that they got 40 out of 40 points at home.

Posted by UMFan from Denver, Colorado on 02/13/12 at 09:48 PM ET

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Paul Kukla founded Kukla’s Korner in 2005 and the site has since become the must-read site on the ‘net for all the latest happenings around the NHL.

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