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The War Of Words Continues

 

Filed in: NHL Talk, NHLPA, | KK Hockey | Permalink
  Tags: kris+versteeg

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Nope, the players aren’t letting the emotions of the situation rule them.

Not at all.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/19/12 at 04:04 PM ET

Evilpens's avatar

hahahaha every time a Player opens his pie hole they make the NHL case better, If Fehr wasn’t directing them to demonize Bettman & Daly he ought tell them to STFU

Posted by Evilpens on 11/19/12 at 04:42 PM ET

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Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/19/12 at 03:04 PM ET

I guess I missed the part that says he yelled this with tears pouring down his face while ripping at his shirt.

Posted by Garth on 11/19/12 at 04:43 PM ET

Paul's avatar

You can listen to his remarks here.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 11/19/12 at 04:46 PM ET

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hahahaha every time a Player opens his pie hole they make the NHL case better

Yeah?  It somehow negates the record revenues the NHL brought in last year?

Posted by Garth on 11/19/12 at 04:48 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

So between Ian White and Kris Versteeg, we’ve got 0.3% of NHLPA members calling Gary Bettman names.

Meanwhile, ten times that percentage of governors have said disparaging things about the players.

What exactly are we arguing here?

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/19/12 at 05:28 PM ET

mrfluffy's avatar

Cough, Jimmy Devellano, Cough.

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 11/19/12 at 05:32 PM ET

NIVO's avatar

don needs a gag order on the players. Does no good to rant in public.

Posted by NIVO from underpants gnome village on 11/19/12 at 05:36 PM ET

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Tweeted by Louis Jean: Some of NHLers skating this morning in Montreal wore “Puck Gary” ballcaps. They are NOT sanctionned by the @NHLPA

Posted by dash_pinched on 11/19/12 at 05:58 PM ET

Red Winger's avatar

Tweeted by Louis Jean: Some of NHLers skating this morning in Montreal wore “Puck Gary” ballcaps. They are NOT sanctionned by the @NHLPA


...and JJ slinks into a corner ...

smile

 

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 11/19/12 at 06:19 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

...and JJ slinks into a corner ...

smile

And Red Winger doesn’t read the words “not sanctioned by the NHLPA” and somehow thinks an undisclosed, but easily-assumed-as-small bunch are still representative of the whole group.

How many players was it? Was it 700? Anywhere close to that?

Counting must be very difficult for you.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/19/12 at 06:22 PM ET

Joe Z.'s avatar

It’s funny that there are people that still believe public opinion of one side or the other matters in the negotiations, as if a good PR gives you leverage, haha.

Posted by Joe Z. from Austria on 11/19/12 at 07:34 PM ET

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i dont understand stand this is an issue this has been going on since Chris Cheolis comments.

Posted by FlyersFan on 11/19/12 at 08:21 PM ET

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I guess I missed the part that says he yelled this with tears pouring down his face while ripping at his shirt.

Oh, I’m sure there is more room for the players to go nuts Garth, I’m just pointing out that pretty much every time a player comments publicly you can tell they are annoyed and lashing out based on that emotion.

Unless they are just cutting pro wrestling promos with their public comments, that kind of thing when demonstrated over and over again by players leads me to suspect it might, you know, be something they are struggling with.

How many players was it? Was it 700? Anywhere close to that?

How many players does it have to be, JJ?

As far as I can tell, basing this on the comments they make, it runs about 3 or 4 to 1 overwrought to composed on the player side.

It’s funny that there are people that still believe public opinion of one side or the other matters in the negotiations, as if a good PR gives you leverage, haha.

I don’t think it matters at all, really.  I said that going into this.  The thing is, these kinds of negotiations are always acted out partially in public and partially in private.  The public comments are part of the fencing between the sides.

They aren’t so much for the ‘public’ as they are for the other side of the table.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/19/12 at 08:25 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

How many players does it have to be, JJ?

Probably somewhere more than the margin for error on a poll.

Honestly, how many have you really seen?  20 players is about 3% of the NHLPA.  Have we even seen 20 players explode yet?

It’s absolutely insane that people would characterize the actions of the entire players’ union based on so few vocal ones.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/19/12 at 08:52 PM ET

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It’s absolutely insane that people would characterize the actions of the entire players’ union based on so few vocal ones.

Enh.  It’s a pretty high percentage of the people who are responding though, JJ.

Seriously, based on what we’ve heard from 70-80% of the players who’ve actually spoken, what percentage of them would you guess that when asked the question would say something along the lines of ‘Bettman is a bleephole’?

I mean, if I talk to 20 Lions fans and 15ish say much the same thing in the same tone,  it seems fair to extrapolate a certain universiality of that particular opinion to a corresponding amount of Lions fans in general without having to, you know, poll every single Lions fan individually.

We’re not doing Nate Silver’s work for him or anything here, obviously, but come on.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/19/12 at 09:34 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Amazingly the vocally angry ones are vocally angry while the rational just-want-to-get-a-deal-done ones are rationally staying quiet because there’s not really anything else to say.

How about if you ask 700 Lions fans and less than 20 of them bother responding at all to you and 15 of them are angry and loud?  The 680 silent ones don’t count?

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/19/12 at 09:59 PM ET

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Amazingly the vocally angry ones are vocally angry while the rational just-want-to-get-a-deal-done ones are rationally staying quiet because there’s not really anything else to say.

I see why you’d attempt to take that tack, of course, but you’re ignoring both the tone and the frequency of the emotional comments.

How about if you ask 700 Lions fans and less than 20 of them bother responding at all to you and 15 of them are angry and loud?  The 680 silent ones don’t count?

So what you’re saying in answer to this…

Seriously, based on what we’ve heard from 70-80% of the players who’ve actually spoken, what percentage of them would you guess that when asked the question would say something along the lines of ‘Bettman is a bleephole’?

... is that 680 players would say no comment, 15 would be mad and 5 would be dispassionate and reasonable.

Okay then.  Good to know.

 

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/20/12 at 05:39 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

The frequency?  We’re two months into a lockout and precisely two out of 700 players have said something that a reasonable majority could say he should apologize for. A still-undisclosed number have worn silly hats (although we now know the hats were apparently Erik Cole’s idea)

None of those three are considered a large part of the group of players carrying out the negotiations with the league.

You’re vastly overstating either the tone of many comments or the frequency of actually notable comments. It’s easy to do because any calm and rational response (like Dan Cleary’s quotes this lockout) don’t get nearly as much play as the two guys who resorted to name-calling.

Your attempt to re-frame the discussion to how many players would say they think Bettman’s an bleephole isn’t what I’m arguing against. The characterization that such a small percentage of the union is standing in as what represents the entire union to you is the problem.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/20/12 at 09:10 AM ET

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We’re two months into a lockout and precisely two out of 700 players have said something that a reasonable majority could say he should apologize for.

I think you’re now trying to change the terms of the discussion.  My point is that as a group the players appear to be approaching these negotiations from a highly emotional, volatile perspective… and that’s something which tends to have a negative impact on the progress of negotiations.

I don’t care at all about the number of comments which are made that need to be apologized for.  In general I think if someone says what they truly think ‘apologizing’ for it afterwards is just PR crap.  IIRC Suter did something like that a few weeks ago and I said pretty much the same thing.

You’re vastly overstating either the tone of many comments or the frequency of actually notable comments.

I suppose that’s possible, just like it’s possible you’re vastly underestimating the depth of emotion on the players side and how vitriolically anti-Bettman it is.

I mean, just look around here at fans who for the most part aren’t financially invested (at least in terms of getting money from the league) the NHL product and how emotional and overwrought their opinions of Bettman are.

Do you really believe the players, whose livelihood depends on the NHL more or less, are more sanguine about him than fans are?  I suppose you do, based on your comments so far… I just don’t quite see how you could make that kind of statement.

White calls him an idiot, Versteeq calls him a cancer, Suter hammers his owner, Havlat blasts the league, that one idiot drinking wine in front of a fire trying to paint himself via Twitter as an oppressed everyman after making millions in the NHL…

It seems like 80% of the time a player talks they come off as enraged or ignorant, or both.  That’s not a great cocktail for progress in compromise and accommodation.

Do I think every single one of the players is pissed off?  Of course not.  Lots of guys are playing overseas and getting paid, or are already rich beyond their wildest dreams and not terribly worried about things, or arranged gigantic upfront payments over the last couple years in anticipation of this, or all of the above.

 

 

Posted by HockeyinHD on 11/20/12 at 10:09 AM ET

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What everyone fails to mention is that Versteeg is right. And if you polled the people that really count, the fans, I think the majority will have the same opinion of Bettman as well.

I think this really highlights why the Fehr brothers are negotiating and not a bunch of amateurs. When the rank and file got involved the last time the NHLPA got rolled.

Posted by hockey1919 from mid-atlantic on 11/20/12 at 10:44 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

My point is that as a group the players appear to be approaching these negotiations from a highly emotional, volatile perspective

You have not consistently categorized it as *a* group of players, but rather *the* group of players. That has been the problem for the entirety of this discussion.

If you’re changing your tune to now argue that there are just some players who are angry enough to mouth off, then I can agree with that.

If you’re saying that it’s affecting the way Don Fehr is negotiating, then no, we do not agree. You think Krys Barch has the ear of the PA? Versteeg? Havlat? Ian White?  These aren’t the guys getting mentioned when they list off players who are going into negotiating sessions. It’s a stupid and a needless distraction, but the players hired an actual negotiator for a reason.

It seems like 80% of the time a player talks they come off as enraged or ignorant, or both.  That’s not a great cocktail for progress in compromise and accommodation.

Yes, because loud things garner more attention than smart things. Ryan Clowe’s consistently been nailing it, but that’s not nearly as entertaining as Alex Ovechkin rattling off a stupid tweet calling the other side a bunch of clowns. Dan Cleary has been talking consistently well about the issues, but by all means, let’s head to the cheap seats for a fireside chat with Krys Barch sponsored by whatever booze he’s swilling.

or are already rich beyond their wildest dreams and not terribly worried about things

Poor people don’t have worries, they have realities. Of all the things the rich can afford, worry is the cheapest.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 11/20/12 at 11:47 AM ET

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It always amazes me that the argument so often boils down to the owners have lots of money so they can afford to wait it out while the players are losing prime earning years. It is as if the owners don’t want every last penny as much as the players do. The owners can wait out the players, but they want the money just as badly if not more so, so they won’t wait it out.

If they didn’t care about lost revenue they could continue with the status quoand still be billionaires.  They want to get as much revenue as possible moving forward, but don’t think for a moment that they don’t consider every dollar not earned in the present as lost revenue too. They want it all and they want to win while doing it.  And that is why they will act as irrationally as the players do.

Posted by hockey1919 from mid-atlantic on 11/20/12 at 01:16 PM ET

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Paul Kukla founded Kukla’s Korner in 2005 and the site has since become the must-read site on the ‘net for all the latest happenings around the NHL.

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