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Shea Weber For The Hart?

from John Manasso of Fox Sports Tennessee,

With defenseman Shea Weber getting hotter and hotter since the middle of December, Nashville Predators coach Barry Trotz has increasingly begun making the case for Weber to win the Norris Trophy, given to the NHL's top defenseman.

In recent weeks Weber has almost single-handedly powered the Predators back into the playoff race — his three-point game at Philadelphia on Jan. 16 and two-goal game last Friday against New Jersey stand out as prime examples of his singular contributions in victories — all of which has lent more credence to Trotz's claims while also providing some food for thought.

Unless the Predators make the playoffs, Weber will have a hard time winning the Norris. However, if Nashville does make the playoffs, is it possible that Weber is worthy of an even larger prize? Perhaps he is an even better candidate for the Hart Trophy.

continued

Filed in: NHL Teams, Minnesota Wild, | KK Hockey | Permalink
  Tags: shea+weber

Comments

SYF's avatar

You wanna even talk about this dumbfuch for the Hart???

Try again.

Posted by SYF from Alana Blanchard's Bikinis and Surfboards on 02/07/14 at 06:38 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Hahaha no

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 02/07/14 at 07:01 PM ET

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It’d be nice if these butthurt Wings fans would read the article. He doesn’t have the pedigree of Pronger, but if the Preds make the playoffs or bring it down to the last week or less, and he keeps up this pace, why not?

Because the DoPS failed to suspend him for an incident 2, 3 years ago? Get over it!

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 08:04 PM ET

TeamDub's avatar

I NOW consider Weber a complete douchebag.

Posted by TeamDub from The gratch. on 02/07/14 at 08:14 PM ET

TEMO's avatar

corey perry won the Hart so it wouldn’t surprise me.  Even complete a-holes win it sometimes. 

 

Posted by TEMO from LANSING, MICHIGAN, U.S.A. on 02/07/14 at 08:18 PM ET

TEMO's avatar

Because the DoPS failed to suspend him for an incident 2, 3 years ago? Get over it!


Yeah that AND because he’s a dich.  But hey let’s buy the guy a beer and have a chuckle over it because it was 2, 3 years ago he took Zetterberg’s head and slammed it into the glass, right?  Would you get over that if it was one of the players on your team?  Get real.

Posted by TEMO from LANSING, MICHIGAN, U.S.A. on 02/07/14 at 08:23 PM ET

Primis's avatar

It’d be nice if these butthurt Wings fans would read the article. He doesn’t have the pedigree of Pronger, but if the Preds make the playoffs or bring it down to the last week or less, and he keeps up this pace, why not?

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 08:04 PM ET

I would say the fact he’s not the most valuable player in the league, and wouldn’t be even in that fantasy scenario you cite, makes a pretty convincing argument as to why he shouldn’t win the award that goes to the MVP of the league.

Posted by Primis on 02/07/14 at 08:28 PM ET

Avatar

So despite all of the evidence provided (that they probably didn’t even read), Wings fans will cry about the incident and say he shouldn’t win because he is a dick, ignoring the fact that he is a top 5 defenseman in the league today.

Also, with the Preds being just 3 points out of a wildcard spot with a game in hand, I don’t see how that is such an extreme

fantasy scenario

.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 08:33 PM ET

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I must have missed the part where being a “dick” as designated by Wings fans on Kukla’s Korner was one way to NOT be an MVP. Guess we should re-write the book for Perry, Pronger, Thornton, Lindros, etc.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 08:35 PM ET

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Twisting yourself into a pretzel to give the league MVP to the league’s 2nd or 3rd best D that year is a very bad idea.

The idea behind these awards isn’t to look for technicalities in the wording to give it to someone that would make for a good story. Bad enough that that’s what happened with both Perry and Thornton. You don’t compound the stupidity of past actions and give it to Weber.

sincerely,

Not a wings fan who thought Zetterberg got what he deserved for drilling a guy in the numbers in that gif

Posted by larry on 02/07/14 at 08:59 PM ET

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So he uses a direct quote from the description of the award, provides some pretty basic numbers (as long as you understand algebra) and that is “twisting pretzels” and “technicalities.”

Is everyone here that close minded?

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 09:12 PM ET

awould's avatar

It could be argued the player with the most points in the NHL is probably the most valuable to his own team. People arguing for a dark horse always lean hard on the “most valuable to their team” argument and toss aside the “most points in the league” player like that isn’t relevant to their impact on their own team. The writer makes a good argument, but if you have to parse stats to prove the point, you’ve lost.

Posted by awould on 02/07/14 at 09:40 PM ET

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You likely toss aside “most points in the league” because there is already for a trophy for that, and the description for the hart trophy does not include “most points in the league.” If it were, then the likes of Pronger and Theodore would not be able to win.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 09:48 PM ET

awould's avatar

Also, it’s a hard sell to give the award to the player most valuable to a crappy team. His impact is amplified by the lack of talent around him. You could add a team full of blind players to the NHL and have Kyle Quincey as their captain and he’d win the award in a landslide if it were judged that way.

Posted by awould on 02/07/14 at 09:48 PM ET

awould's avatar

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 09:48 PM ET

Yes, but points and goals add value to a players contribution to their team. So tossing that aside as some sort of irrelevant or less valuable metric makes no sense. Somehow Weber’s goal contribution to his team is important but the guy who scored the most in the league should be less so? The argument is a pretzel… the more conditions, the more parsing, the weaker the argument. The past winners of the Hart didn’t need 14 paragraphs and a slide ruler to explain.

Posted by awould on 02/07/14 at 09:51 PM ET

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Algebra = twisting the pretzel.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 09:56 PM ET

awould's avatar

Parsing stats, emphasizing some contributions over others, choosing what’s more and less important… all in an effort to box on guy in and the rest out = twisting the pretzel

Posted by awould on 02/07/14 at 09:58 PM ET

Chris in Hockey Hell's avatar

Weber won’t win the League’s MVP trophy when he isn’t even the MVP of the TEAM. Rinne is the MVP of that team and hasn’t played in months. As long as Nashville plays the style they play and count on their goalie to keep them in the game while the offense tries go muster up its 2 goals per game, the goalie will always be the MVP on that team. And yes, the guy that scores the most points is usually going go be the front runner for the Hart trophy. It really doesn’t have anything go do with being “butthurt” which is rich coming from an apparent Predators fan.

Posted by Chris in Hockey Hell from Ann Arbor, MI but LIVING in Columbia, TN on 02/07/14 at 10:00 PM ET

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So we should judge all players on points scored. Feel bad for goalies. But that is kind of how subjective voting works….some dismiss +/- as more of a team statistic and others use it as gospel.

We all know Datsyuk should have won MVP in 2009 but he got bested by two slags that had little to no defensive responsibilities. Some of us chose to look at that, others didn’t.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 10:07 PM ET

Primis's avatar

Weber won’t win the League’s MVP trophy when he isn’t even the MVP of the TEAM. Rinne is the MVP of that team and hasn’t played in months.

Posted by Chris in Hockey Hell from Ann Arbor, MI but LIVING in Columbia, TN on 02/07/14 at 10:00 PM ET

And there it is.

Conversation OVER.

Posted by Primis on 02/07/14 at 10:43 PM ET

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Except for that whole ya know, they are in the playoff hunt without him.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 10:48 PM ET

Primis's avatar

Except for that whole ya know, they are in the playoff hunt without him.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 10:48 PM ET

Good for them?  Nobody cares.

The Hart is for MVP.  Most.  Valuable.  Player.  Across the whole league, not just in sad small markets who measure success by first-round playoff exits and dollars saved here and there.

Wow.  So you helped your team to the playoffs when your stud goalie went down.  That’s…. nice.  I guess.  Exactly how does that make someone Hart material again?

Posted by Primis on 02/07/14 at 11:49 PM ET

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Posted by Primis on 02/07/14 at 11:49 PM ET

LOL. You’re right, We should just give it to the points leader each year. Why even bother with the Art Ross?

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/08/14 at 12:00 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

ignoring the fact that he is a top 5 defenseman in the league today.

You’re not even confident enough in him to call him the breakaway best defenseman in the league and you’re this zealous over calling out other people for not seeing it your way?

Is everyone here that close minded?

Not everyone, just the person who bounced in here making blanket accusations about a single team’s fanbase, from my perspective.

Weber is not now a good candidate. Heck, the poor writer just about gift-wraps the argument for Erik Karlsson being more valuable and simply chooses to ignore it based on the silliness that scoring a significantly higher percentage on a higher-scoring team somehow magically negates the idea that Karlsson is that much better on a team that’s essentially the Nashville of the East.

Karlsson’s numbers are better than Weber’s and his team is only 3 points better than Nashville, so he’s a better candidate whether you want to solely consider point production or whether you also want to consider that intangible “where would they be without him?” mumbo-jumbo.

But go ahead and keep whining about other people being biased.  You’re doing a great job convincing people.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 02/08/14 at 12:42 AM ET

Avatar

So he uses a direct quote from the description of the award, provides some pretty basic numbers (as long as you understand algebra) and that is “twisting pretzels” and “technicalities.”

Is everyone here that close minded?

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/07/14 at 09:12 PM ET


If one were to go read “most valuable to his team” as “player who adds the most relative value,” (ie player without whom his team would be the most screwed) then this year’s winner would be a no-brain pick for none other than one Ryan Miller. Assuming Enroth’s winning percentage holds, wiithout Miller, the Sabers win 3 games this year, instead of 16. There is no other single player you can remove from a team and end up damaging them to a greater degree.

Last year’s would have seen Bobrovski as the unanimous winner, with Rask and Anderson close behind.

All of Wayne Gretzky’s MVPs would have been divided between some combination of Patrick Roy, Tom Barrasso, Ron Hextall and Grant Fuhr.

Curtis Joseph would have about ten.

In other words, the player in the NHL that most-elevates an otherwise weak team will always be a goaltender. The other two nominees will also be goaltenders.

Every.
Single.
Year.

A less lunatic interpretation of “most valuable to his team” would be “the player that adds the most to his team.” A counting value, not a percentage. Whosoever has added the most value—period—has added the most value to his team, regardless of what anyone else on the team did.


So yes, you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to come up with the name Shea Weber for the Hart Trophy.

Weber is neither the player without whom his team would most suffer (Miller) nor is he the player who adds the most value, period (Crosby).

Posted by larry on 02/08/14 at 12:52 AM ET

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And yet somehow the league leader in points last year (MSL) was 9th in hart trophy voting.

The Capitals with/without Ovechkin producing made a huge difference, and that is why he ended up wining the Hart. Similarly, Bob finished 5th in Hart voting after getting the blue jackets ever so close. You could say that he was the best goalie, but one could also argue that Shea Weber is one of the best defensemen this year.

It’s as simple as that. If Weber can keep up this pace, get the Preds close, he should get similar consideration for the Hart. Why is that such an awful concept? lol.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/08/14 at 01:06 AM ET

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Ovechkin won the Hart for the same reason Perry and Theodore won the Hart—because the current incarnation of the PHWA are idiots.

There was no statistical case for giving him a Hart trophy, but the “Prodigal Son’s Return” narrative (in Perry’s and Theodore’s case, the narrative was “underdog came out of nowhere”) struck such a cord with the writers that they also nominated him to the All-Star team twice at two different positions, one of which, he didn’t even play.


As to why Weber should not get consideration, that’s already been answered. He qualifies under neither interpretation of the wording and even if you exclude goaltenders—Hell, even if you exclude forwards—he’s still behind both Erik Karlsson and PK Subban, both of whom lead their teams in production, which Weber does not, and dominate those fancy new defensive stats to a greater degree than Shea Weber does.

How foolish would it look for a Hart winning defenseman to not even get a Norris nomination (Keith, Karlsson, Subban all having better years)? Because that’s what you’re suggesting should happen.

Posted by larry on 02/08/14 at 01:27 AM ET

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Never suggested he should win. Article clearly states that he should get consideration, something that was re-iterated in my last comment.

Even if the voters are idiots, we could hold a whole different argument on the way they should vote vs. the way they do.

Weber has pretty much nothing around him. And to suggest he doesn’t deserve a solid amount of consideration based on a whole body of work, is completely ludicrous.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/08/14 at 01:37 AM ET

TreKronor's avatar

These pretzels are making me thirsty…

Posted by TreKronor on 02/08/14 at 08:39 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Well it’s great that we’re now into the back-down semantics of this argument where you can now dial back the ridiculousness and pretend you were merely arguing for “a solid amount of consideration” for Weber, but I’d suggest you take your own advice and read the article.

The other posits that Weber is perhaps a better candidate for the Hart than he is for the Norris. This is an absolutely laughable position to take.

Whatever you want to call a solid amount of consideration, fine. I still don’t agree. I considered Weber and immediately considered that he’s not the best candidate for his own position.

If picking the Hart winner were the Olympic Tournament, Weber doesn’t make it out of his own group into the elimination round. I don’t consider this to be worthy of a “solid amount” of consideration.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 02/08/14 at 09:02 AM ET

Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit's avatar

These pretzels are making me thirsty…

Posted by TreKronor on 02/08/14 at 08:39 AM ET

Seinfeld reference? wink

Lets Go Red Wings!!!!!

Posted by Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit on 02/08/14 at 09:50 AM ET

TreKronor's avatar

Seinfeld reference?

Bingo!

Posted by TreKronor on 02/08/14 at 10:34 AM ET

Primis's avatar

Article clearly states that he should get consideration, something that was re-iterated in my last comment.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/08/14 at 01:37 AM ET

I think we’ve pretty much taken care of the notion that he even deserves consideration.  There are 30 teams in the league, each team has its own MVP.  If by “consideration” you mean 30 candidates, maybe.  Otherwise no, get off it.

Posted by Primis on 02/08/14 at 02:21 PM ET

Avatar

Never suggested he should win. Article clearly states that he should get consideration, something that was re-iterated in my last comment.

Posted by fromdowntown on 02/08/14 at 01:37 AM ET

I’d agree only that Weber deserves roughly the same amount of “consideration” for the Hart trophy as someone like Claude Giroux or Blake Wheeler will get—two other players driving the success of bubble teams who are, nonetheless, not having the best year of anyone playing their position.

Posted by larry on 02/08/14 at 07:48 PM ET

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Paul Kukla founded Kukla’s Korner in 2005 and the site has since become the must-read site on the ‘net for all the latest happenings around the NHL.

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