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P.K. Subban Arbitration Was Scheduled To Start At 9:00am

By all indications, there has not been any agreement at this point.

 

added 9:38am,

 

Filed in: NHL Teams, Montreal Canadiens, | KK Hockey | Permalink
  Tags: p.k.+subban

Comments

TreKronor's avatar

I bet this will be a crazy hearing and intense by both sides.  Wish we could see a live broadcast!!!

Posted by TreKronor on 08/01/14 at 08:16 AM ET

Paul's avatar

Did anyone believe it would get to this point?  I certainly did not.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 08/01/14 at 08:33 AM ET

TreKronor's avatar

I was pretty sure it would.  It seems like every time there is an opportunity for it to be PK vs MTL MGMT, it turns into an ordeal.  Great player, and high intensity guy, but it seems like there would be a lot of maintenance in having him on the team. 

Just my opinion from afar.

Posted by TreKronor on 08/01/14 at 09:07 AM ET

awould's avatar

Posted by TreKronor on 08/01/14 at 10:07 AM ET[/]

Seriously? Management is offering an insultingly low contract and you’re blaming Subban for making things difficult? I think this is one situation where he shares no part of the blame.

Posted by awould on 08/01/14 at 10:39 AM ET

JimH's avatar

I think you’re mistaking arbotration numbers for contract offers.  Just because MTL went into arbitration with the $5M doesn’t mean that was all they were offering for a CONTRACT.  They knew Subban would go in with a high number, so they came in low hoping that the arbiter would split the difference, which would probably be the number they’re actually hoping for.  For all we know, an actual contract offer may have been made in the $7M range, but no team is going to go into arbitration with a number that high.

Posted by JimH from the International Space Station on 08/01/14 at 10:49 AM ET

Avatar

Posted by JimH from the International Space Station on 08/01/14 at 11:49 AM ET

The only problem with your argument is that the point of arbitration is that Montreal will be going into the meeting trying to convince the arbitrator that Subban is only worth $5.25M while Subba will be trying to convince the arbitrator that he’s worth $8M+.  The fact that Montreal is arguing that Subban is only worth $5.25M makes it more insulting.

Posted by Garth on 08/01/14 at 11:01 AM ET

awould's avatar

For all we know, an actual contract offer may have been made in the $7M range, but no team is going to go into arbitration with a number that high.

I don’t know how arbitration works, what can and cannot be part of the proceedings, but if MTL was offering $7MM before, seems like that would be relevant in convincing the arbitrator that their $5.25MM claim is unsupportable, since even MTL thinks he’s worth $7MM.

Posted by Garth on 08/01/14 at 12:01 PM ET

It’s so insultingly low that if Subban departs MTL after this contract, the hockey world will point to this as a major blunder. You’ve already got a star player that is a bit mercurial and you toss fuel on that fire w/ this low-ball nonsense?

Posted by awould on 08/01/14 at 11:08 AM ET

JimH's avatar

But they may NOT being trying to convince the arbiter Subban is only worth $5.25M.  They may be going in saying “Look, we picked a low number because we knew he’d pick a high one.  We think he’s worth more than our arbitration figure, but we need to protect our interests knowing that the player’s agent will be asking for the moon and the stars and probably the shuttle program as well.”  Granted, I’ve never been involved in NHL arbitration, but a friend of mine has done several trade union arbitration eharings.  The way those have worked is one side comes in as high as they can while the other comes in as low as they can.  Neither side expects to get the number they chose, but they try to offset each other enough that when the arbiter settles for somewhere close to the middle they’re both (relatively) pleased with the outcome.

Posted by JimH from the International Space Station on 08/01/14 at 11:47 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Prior offers made by a club or prior demands by a player are not admissible evidence in an NHL arbitration case, so if the Habs offered $7M, Subban isn’t even allowed to bring that up.

I get that there’s anchoring involved in these kinds of negotiations. I think that it’s a bad practice for impartial arbitrations, but I also get that the people making all of these decisions are still human beings and anchoring tends to work even in impartial decision-making like this.

The thing is that in impartial arbitrations, there’s not an expectation that both sides are shooting a significant distance away from where they realistically expect to land; You are expected to argue in favor of the exact figure you put in and not arguing in favor of $5.25M or even half-assing such an argument can not only completely unseat your own anchor, but it can strengthen your opponent’s.

Also, I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to completely ignore the human element. PK Subban has every right as a person to feel insulted by the Habs’ initial offer.  You could also say that the Habs have a right to feel insulted by Subban’s ask, but honestly, I don’t think anybody in hockey who knows what they’re talking about can say that the Habs have too much of a justification for that feeling, while most do feel that the $5.25M offer is insultingly low.

Either way, Subban has another two years before he can make UFA and I think part of the Habs’ backup plan right now is to protect as much of their offer as they can while also planning on taking Subban to arbitration again next year (since he filed for it this year, they can file for it next). 

I just wouldn’t be terribly surprised if Subban isn’t still a Canadien in three years.  It actually doesn’t happen much, but they’re giving him absolutely every reason to risk shorter deals during his prime in order to both cash in later and get away from them.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 08/01/14 at 12:05 PM ET

awould's avatar

Posted by JimH from the International Space Station on 08/01/14 at 12:47 PM ET

I’m sure that is how it works, but most things I’ve read seem to be in a common agreement that Subban’s side is asking for something relatively close to what he’s worth and MTL is asking for something ridiculous. My original point, really, is that it’s hard to blame Subban in this case when he’s, by all appearances, the reasonable one in this arbitration.

The caveat to this whole “lowball to off-set the other side’s highball (?)” thing is that if the other side isn’t highballing, you just come off as being unreasonable and unappreciative of the player, which in this case is their star player and the future of the franchise (depending on who you ask). Most indications are that Subban isn’t asking for anything too unreasonable. It’s a risk to alienate and piss off a player of this importance.

Posted by awould on 08/01/14 at 12:07 PM ET

awould's avatar

Prior offers made by a club or prior demands by a player are not admissible evidence in an NHL arbitration case, so if the Habs offered $7M, Subban isn’t even allowed to bring that up.

That makes sense. So does everything else you said. Especially the part where the MTL low-ball makes Subban’s case stronger.

Posted by awould on 08/01/14 at 12:09 PM ET

TreKronor's avatar

Posted by awould on 08/01/14 at 11:39 AM ET

Okay, no needs to put words in my mouth, but I don’t really know where the “blaming” part of your comment comes from.  I think the gm and pk both are kind of high energy say-a-lot kind of guys.

Posted by TreKronor on 08/01/14 at 02:32 PM ET

awould's avatar

It seems like every time there is an opportunity for it to be PK vs MTL MGMT, it turns into an ordeal.  Great player, and high intensity guy, but it seems like there would be a lot of maintenance in having him on the team.

In summary: PK vs MTL is always an ordeal, followed by comment that PK is a high maintenance player.  Missing from statement: any mention about the GM.

My understanding of that is that you imply that every time PK gets an opportunity to go up against MTL, he turns it into an ordeal because he’s a high maintenance guy. From my reading of it, and re-reading of it, it certainly seems plausible to believe you’re blaming PK. Sorry if I got it wrong.

Posted by awould on 08/01/14 at 03:11 PM ET

Avatar

But they may NOT being trying to convince the arbiter Subban is only worth $5.25M.

But they are, because that’s what they hire the arbitration firm to do.

If they told the arbitrator that they knowingly requested something they know to be less than he is worth then the arbitrator would s absolutely side with Subban, awarding him a contract closer to what Subban is asking for, if not exactly what he asked for.

In that case, then this protracted negotiation plus the insult of low balling him with the arbitration case would amount to exactly nothing, since Subban would be getting what he asked for in the first place.  Except that now he’s more pissed off than he was when he gave in and signed that bridge deal, pretty much guaranteeing that, unless the Habs get a new GM, he will absolutely be leaving when his UFA time comes up.

And make no mistake, if Bergevin does what your suggesting he might do, which is admit that he was disingenuous with his lowball request, he deserves to be fired on the spot.

Posted by Garth on 08/01/14 at 10:55 PM ET

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