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HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

This is getting pretty petty.

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 12/16/12 at 03:54 PM ET

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Getting?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/16/12 at 07:09 PM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

getting.

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 12/16/12 at 08:54 PM ET

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How petty was it when the PA rejected realignment out of hand during last season?  Or when players re-tweeted death threats against Bettman?  Or any of the other players or media types firing off any of their 4 million personal shots against Bettman?

There’s been a nice, thick streak of petty going for quite a while… which is a significant part of the reason there’s no NHL hockey right now.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/17/12 at 05:40 AM ET

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How petty was it when the PA rejected realignment out of hand during last season?

You mean because the players didn’t want lopsided conferences in which teams in two of the conferences had a mathematically better chance to make the playoffs than the other two?

Petty losers, they should just do what the owners want all the time without ever questioning anything.

Or any of the other players or media types firing off any of their 4 million personal shots against Bettman?

What the *#$%@& do the “media types” have to do with anything?

Also, why no question about how petty it was to lock out the players before ever attempting any sort of negotiating?

Posted by Garth on 12/17/12 at 10:35 AM ET

tuxedoTshirt's avatar

Thank you Garth.

Posted by tuxedoTshirt from the Home of the 1937 World Champions on 12/17/12 at 11:31 AM ET

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I am now starting to understand why some cattle just follow the next tail into the stall even when they see burgers coming out the other side.

Posted by hockey1919 from mid-atlantic on 12/17/12 at 11:54 AM ET

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You mean because the players didn’t want lopsided conferences in which teams in two of the conferences had a mathematically better chance to make the playoffs than the other two?

Yeah, because being in the playoffs or not affects players how, exactly?

Petty losers, they should just do what the owners want all the time without ever questioning anything.

I have a serious question.  Are you able to honestly discuss anything, or is being idiotically misrepresentative and hyperbolic irreversibly reflexive?

I mean, come on.  I don’t think you honestly believe I either said or suggested that the NHLPA should do everything the NHL wants, always.  Which makes me wonder why you’d say something so obviously false. 

I’m actually curious, if you have a minute to pull back the curtain.

What the *#$%@& do the “media types” have to do with anything?

Garth.  Come on.  This is the real world here.  Are you honestly attempting to say that the media’s public commentary on the negotiations have had no impact on the tenor of the negotiations?

Of course it does.  Of course players read it and get fired up and owners read it and get pissed off.  Stop.

Also, why no question about how petty it was to lock out the players before ever attempting any sort of negotiating?

First off, your statement is silly because a lockout is a requirement as soon as the previous CBA expires, Garth.  Without a CBA there is no legal framework for operating the league.  The only way to not have a lockout is to already have a provisional CBA agreement in place, and the only provisional CBA the players would have accepted was the old CBA, which makes your objection moot.

Secondly, are you suggesting that no negotiations of any kind took place prior to September 15th regarding the CBA?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/17/12 at 02:25 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Yeah, because being in the playoffs or not affects players how, exactly?

Hahaha. That’s a serious question. Hahahahaha.

a lockout is a requirement as soon as the previous CBA expires

Faaaaaalse.

Without a CBA there is no legal framework for operating the league.

Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalse.

The only way to not have a lockout is to already have a provisional CBA agreement in place

FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALSE

the only provisional CBA the players would have accepted was the old CBA.

FAAAAA…..well… unsupported by evidence, at least. That one is too subjective to be true/false.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/17/12 at 03:20 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Tom Anselmi, president and COO of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, says it was a mix-up.

“Not our policy at all,” Anselmi said in an e-mail to QMI. “The place was booked solid, the only reason Joffrey didn’t get a reservation.”

-via the Toronto Sun

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 12/17/12 at 03:29 PM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

Posted by
     
    HockeyinHD
     
      on 12/17/12 at 04:40 AM ET

You that hard up you have to start an arguement about WHEN things became PETTY?  That seems a little.. well, ironic.

I’m not J.J., go hump someone else’s leg.

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 12/17/12 at 03:35 PM ET

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My question is why is Lupul supporting Real Sports Bar & Grill when it puts money in the pockets of the owners locking him out? No wonder a fan boycott would have little impact when the players can’t resists.

Posted by hockey1919 from mid-atlantic on 12/17/12 at 03:38 PM ET

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Hahaha. That’s a serious question. Hahahahaha.

And as always, you fail to address the issue in favor of being goofy.

A) What’s the difference to players, in aggregate, if there is a 50-50 playoff chance between two conferences or a 60-40 playoff chance between two conferences?

B) Golly, I wonder if the league might look to address that kind of conference imbalance at some point in the future by… hey, how does a league add teams again? 

So yeah, it was pretty shortsighted of the PA to torpedo the realignment issue.

And you cannot run a league without a CBA, JJ.  You cannot.  Your lack of understanding about that central reality doesn’t change it.  You can yowl ‘faaaaalse’ all you want.

You are attempting to argue a moot position which happens to also be a stupid position.  Without a CBA, a league can’t run.  When a CBA expires, there is no CBA.

So, when the CBA expired there was no CBA.  If you think the NHLPA would have played this season under anything less than the old CBA… well, you’ve demonstrated a spectacular amount of willful credulity about that sort of thing before so I’m not exactly surprised, but suffice to say there’s a 0% chance that would happen.

You that hard up you have to start an arguement about WHEN things became PETTY?

I was curious if there was any real substance to your position.  That question has been amply answered.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/17/12 at 07:01 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

And you cannot run a league without a CBA, JJ.  You cannot.  Your lack of understanding about that central reality doesn’t change it.  You can yowl ‘faaaaalse’ all you want.

Thank you for permission to be right.

If you think the NHLPA would have played this season under anything less than the old CBA

Huh.. what’s this? The text of the NHL’s lawsuit?  What does this say here?

“the NHLPA made oral and/or written proposals on August 14, August 23, August 28, September 12”

Whaaaaaa?  FOUR proposals before the lockout that were not the old CBA?  It’s almost as though you’re wrong… again.

Woo!

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/17/12 at 07:42 PM ET

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I don’t think you honestly believe I either said or suggested that the NHLPA should do everything the NHL wants, always.

I’ll throw it back to you.  Do you honestly believe that there were no reasons for the PA to reject the realignment?  Do you honestly think that having lopsided conferences is something that the players want?  Do you honestly think that this new alignment of four lopsided conferences was a simple idea borne out the desire to better the league?

Are you honestly attempting to say that the media’s public commentary on the negotiations have had no impact on the tenor of the negotiations?

No, I’m not.

Read what I wrote.  You attributed the writings of “media types” to the “petty” nature of the union.

That’s what I objected to, Johnny Reading-Compehension.

First off, your statement is silly because a lockout is a requirement as soon as the previous CBA expires, Garth.

Locking players out

without ever negotiating with them

isn’t a requirement.

the only provisional CBA the players would have accepted was the old CBA

Is it?  Ah yes, of course it is.  The only the the players would’ve accepted was the old one, which explains why they’ve moved towards the owners’ demands on just about every talking point.

You know, because they’re completely inflexible.

A) What’s the difference to players, in aggregate, if there is a 50-50 playoff chance between two conferences or a 60-40 playoff chance between two conferences?

I don’t know, I guess was enough for them to not blindly accept that the owners were doing what was in the best interest of the players and the game.

Golly, I wonder if the league might look to address that kind of conference imbalance at some point in the future by…

Yes, the PA should simply put blind trust in the league to do right by them, because again, the league is known for doing what is in the best interest of the players and the game, right?  You know, like locking them out before ever engaging in any negotiations.  I’m sure if the PA had asked the league nicely the league would’ve simply drawn up a new CBA that is beneficial to both the league and the union, right?

I have a serious question, HiHD.  Are you able to honestly discuss anything?

Posted by Garth on 12/17/12 at 09:17 PM ET

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Thank you for permission to be right.

You’ve always had it, you’ve just rarely chose to employ it.

Whaaaaaa?  FOUR proposals before the lockout that were not the old CBA?  It’s almost as though you’re wrong… again.

Oh look, the ‘JJ plays the idiot semantic game’ again.  Yay!

The NHLPA’s first four offers were different in detail but incredibly similar in effect to the old CBA, JJ.  Specifically, they all maintained the NHLPA’s 57% player share.

So yes, to the degree that you will pretend to think the phrases ‘This is a red tree’ and ‘A red tree this is’ are totally different things... well, have at it.

I’ll throw it back to you.

So you’re going to dodge the question.  Unsurprising.

Do you honestly believe that there were no reasons for the PA to reject the realignment?

Of course there are reasons, Garth.  Cynical, petty, purely mechanical collective bargaining reasons just like the ones Fehr employed when he blocked significant drug-testing at every turn in MLB, but reasons nonetheless.

Which if you scroll up and refresh your memory as to what was actually being discussed, was the point.

Read what I wrote.  You attributed the writings of “media types” to the “petty” nature of the union.

That’s what I objected to, Johnny Reading-Compehension.

Wow.  Here’s what I said:

“Or any of the other players or media types firing off any of their 4 million personal shots against Bettman?”

And, in the midst of complaining that someone else can’t read you’re going to try and pretend that comment ties the players and media together as a unit?

I didn’t attribute the media’s actions to anything the union did, Garth.  Good grief.

Locking players out isn’t a requirement.

Okay.  Let’s see if you are capable of answering a question.  What happens without a lockout, exactly?

The only the the players would’ve accepted was the old one, which explains why they’ve moved towards the owners’ demands on just about every talking point.

You know, because they’re completely inflexible.

And once again, you are making an idiotic strawman argument. with your second comment while being obtuse in the extreme with the first.  So, that’s a nice daily double, but not really evidence of much higher-level thought behind your words.

Let’s see how well you’re able to grapple with the ‘What happens without a lockout, exactly?’ question before I go into too much detail about the numerous areas where your opinion shatters under the weight of reality.

Yes, the PA should simply put blind trust in the league to do right by them,

Again, this is an idiotic strawman argument wherein you dishonestly attempt to portray my position as other than it is, and then continuing to falsely state that the NHL locked out the players absent any negotiations.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/18/12 at 09:12 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

The NHLPA’s first four offers were different in detail but incredibly similar in effect to the old CBA, JJ.  Specifically, they all maintained the NHLPA’s 57% player share.

False.

Again, this is an idiotic strawman argument wherein you dishonestly attempt to portray my position as other than it is

I had the same read on it as Garth did and you’ve got a pretty severe history of claiming you’re being misrepresented when people seriously take into consideration what you’re saying and run with the logic. If your position was other than Garth’s read on it, the dishonesty is yours in doing such a shitty job of not putting it out there in a way that wasn’t stupid.

Which is made extra hilarious when you get mad that sometimes people actually take you at your exact word and point out that “The players would not have played under anything other than the old CBA” is a lie.

 

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/18/12 at 09:20 AM ET

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Paul Kukla founded Kukla’s Korner in 2005 and the site has since become the must-read site on the ‘net for all the latest happenings around the NHL.

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