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Evilpens's avatar

Hahahahahaha PA is going to Crap the Bed

Posted by Evilpens on 12/28/12 at 09:38 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Had a little chuckle when reading how Cole referred to Bettman.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 12/28/12 at 09:39 PM ET

phillyd's avatar

Is the NHLPA serious? This is a starting point? Anyone who’s read the highlights (yes, I know, there are fine details that could be titled way over to the owner’s side) has to come to the conclusion that teensy/tiny tweeks should be there and then lets drop the puck on MLK Jr. Day.

Posted by phillyd from Southern New Jersey on 12/28/12 at 10:01 PM ET

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I suppose I shouldn’t be, but I’m always a little surprised by how blameless the players hold themselves in this mess. Cole says ‘I don’t think the Commissioner is foolish enough to cancel another season…’ as though Bettman is the only guy with a vote.

If the PA wanted to play, they’d play.  If the NHL wanted to play, they’d play.

Both sides are dug in on their positions, both sides are at least equally responsible for the absence of NHL hockey to date, and both sides are perfectly willing to not play hockey unless they get what they want.

I don’t know how much more obvious those realities can get.

Anyone who’s read the highlights (yes, I know, there are fine details that could be titled way over to the owner’s side) has to come to the conclusion that teensy/tiny tweeks should be there and then lets drop the puck on MLK Jr. Day.

This is the problem with Fehr’s fairly consistent mischaracterization of negotiations as ‘close’.  ‘We’re almost there.’  ‘Just a bit more movement’.  Stuff like that.

It’s not the case at all, IMO.  I think the owners and players are separated by quite a bit on the major issues, namely revenue split, contract length, CBA length, and salary structure.

HRR split:  The owners want a 50-50 by year two.  The PA wants to get a minimum of 65ish million bucks a year per team for as long as it takes for 65ish million bucks a year per team to end up being 50-50.  The sides are likely separated by upwards of 300 million bucks here.

Contract length:  The NHLPA has offered nothing with regards to term limits.  The NHL wants 6/7 year max.

CBA length: PA wants a 5 year deal, NHL wants a 10 year deal.

Salary structure:  The NHL wants a 10% max on salary variation, the PA has not addressed this.

I’m going by the PA’s November 21st proposal, since I haven’t seen any subsequent proposals spelled out in much detail.

Still, the two sides are a long way apart.  If the PA thinks that the NHL’s latest offer is a ‘starting point’, they’re stupid.

Then again, they’ve been really, really stupid this whole time.  At this point they’ve lost 600+ million in revenue and they’ve gotten… what?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/29/12 at 08:43 AM ET

Evilpens's avatar

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Most Players aren’t the brightest bulbs in the Chandelier & their Hatred of Bettman is also a Key

Posted by Evilpens on 12/29/12 at 09:35 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

both sides are at least equally responsible for the absence of NHL hockey to date

You know I disagree with this; I just wanted to chuckle a bit at the semantic wiggle that both sides are *at least* equally responsible, as though there were a potential for one side to be more than equally responsible while the other side is still equally responsible.

I’m going by the PA’s November 21st proposal, since I haven’t seen any subsequent proposals spelled out in much detail.

So you’re ignoring the December proposal because you haven’t bothered to look up the specific details that are widely available and cover just about everything you’ve got wrong in this comment.

Here we go: details!

Contract length:  The NHLPA has offered nothing with regards to term limits.  The NHL wants 6/7 year max.

The players’ last offer included contract term limits of 8 years.

CBA length: PA wants a 5 year deal, NHL wants a 10 year deal.

PA’s last offer was an 8 year CBA with an opt-out at 6 in counter to the NHL’s 10 year CBA with an opt-out at 8.

Salary structure:  The NHL wants a 10% max on salary variation, the PA has not addressed this.

The last PA offer had a fairly complex salary variance structure. Tom Tango describes it as essentially an 18% variance (in an article I highly recommend reading which does a much better job to explain how close the two sides are).

How insanely irresponsible and trollish of you. Shame on you.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/29/12 at 10:02 AM ET

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How insanely irresponsible and trollish of you. Shame on you.

Eyeroll.

As I said, I hadn’t seen any subsequent proposals spelled out in detail, which is why I said… I hadn’t seen any subsequent proposals spelled out in detail.

Nice hyperbole though, JJ.

So, assuming what you posted is accurate, the NHL and the PA are way apart on HRR, apart by 25% of the term on contract term limits, apart by 80% on salary variation, and apart by 25% on CBA length… and you think my description of the two sides being far apart is ‘insanely irresponsible and trollish’.

Oy.  Yeah, sounds like they’re right next to each other.  However is there not a deal already?

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/29/12 at 10:19 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

As I said, I hadn’t seen any subsequent proposals spelled out in detail, which is why I said… I hadn’t seen any subsequent proposals spelled out in detail.

The details of the December proposal were spelled out more than enough for you to not make asinine claims that the players haven’t addressed contract term limits and variation and that they remain 5 years apart on CBA term.

and you think my description of the two sides being far apart is ‘insanely irresponsible and trollish’.

No. I think you ignoring everything after November 21st is insanely irresponsible and trollish. You’re either completely out of touch with what’s going on in negotiations or are willfully trying to deceive people. 

Either of those options are more than enough reason for nobody to take you seriously. Although I hope that by now, there wasn’t anybody left who was doing that anyway.  Have a great one.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/29/12 at 10:25 AM ET

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and you think my description of the two sides being far apart is ‘insanely irresponsible and trollish’.

It’s so amusing to watch you completely ignore the obvious meaning of a comment and twist it into something you can feebly argue against.

Posted by Garth on 12/29/12 at 11:38 AM ET

redxblack's avatar

The last time I checked, the players association hadn’t called for a work stoppage. How dare they demand to be treated as equal partners!

Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 12/29/12 at 12:14 PM ET

Red Winger's avatar

The players aren’t equal partners. They are employees of the owners.

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 12/29/12 at 12:31 PM ET

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The players didn’t lock out the owners.
The players haven’t asked for EVERYTHING they want, NOW completely at the expense of the owners.
The players haven’t given “take it or leave it” ultimatums (no matter how toothless those ultimatums ended up being).
The players have made concessions.
The players haven’t had offers expire so they could dramatically pull them off the table.
The players didn’t cut off any negotiations when the owners decided they needed someone qualified to be brought in an review the discussions.

The only blame the players can accept is that if they had taken the NHL’s 43% initial offer, there wouldn’t have been any lockout.

*#$%@& you, players, you at least equally at fault bastards!

Posted by Garth on 12/29/12 at 01:14 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

When the NHL puts a management rights clause into a CBA, the players will be employees.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/29/12 at 02:04 PM ET

Vladimir16's avatar

It’s so amusing to watch you completely ignore the obvious meaning of a comment and twist it into something you can feebly argue against.
Posted by Garth on 12/29/12 at 10:38 AM ET

All of this ^^^^

If the NHL doesn’t start this year this site is gonna be impossible to take. Between the tough guy name callers, owner lovers and arguing for the sake of sounding smart tools…. Oooffff… Never *#$%@& mind

Posted by Vladimir16 from Grand River Valley on 12/29/12 at 02:40 PM ET

Red Winger's avatar

When the NHL puts a management rights clause into a CBA, the players will be employees.

Your knee-jerk “owners bad-players good” mentality through this whole sordid affair has led you to create some, shall we say, creative responses the last few months, JJ, but this one may take the cake!

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 12/29/12 at 07:41 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

but this one may take the cake!

Sorry. I forget you have trouble with facts and that you often tend to trip over them on your way to ad hominem crowing.

Employees don’t get to say no to realignment because management doesn’t have to ask employees.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 12/29/12 at 09:21 PM ET

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Paul Kukla founded Kukla’s Korner in 2005 and the site has since become the must-read site on the ‘net for all the latest happenings around the NHL.

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