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Abel to Yzerman

Ward: Cite Your Source.  Holland: Rebut It or Teach Me Economics

Capgeek says the Detroit Red Wings have 13 million dirty dollars to spend.

Aaron Ward says the Wings are “out of the Shane Doan sweepstakes” because the “asking price is too high.” 

The last thing we’ve heard from Ken Holland? 

24 July, MLive

“We had a game plan heading into the summer,’’ Holland said. “Part of it was July 1, and we accomplished a lot of things on July 1. We tried to make additional moves. They haven’t happened.
“I still believe we got good depth in goal and good depth up front. The team is younger than it was two years ago. We got a lot of players that can grow into bigger roles.’‘

Your game plan has failed.  July 1st was cosmetic compared to what you guaranteed you’d be doing this summer.  You have a good #1 goalie and an unproven backup.  You have decent depth up front. 

And your blue line is mediocre at the very, drunken best.

Here are my demands:  Aaron Ward, give us your sources.  Or at least tell me a Wing official said that.  Because I’d really like to know what “too expensive” is.  8 million is too expensive.  7 is not.  7.5 is negotiable.  3 years is too long, but it’s negotiable. 4 years is a no-go.

Kenny?  If this is pure speculation on Ward’s part, you might want to get out there and say so.  Because this thing is moving fast and you’re looking like absolute garbage.

Yes, PBR is flowing and much more is on tap. Much. More.

Cite your sources, Aaron.  Named or otherwise.  It’s kind of important.

And Kenny? If this is true it’s looking like you’re falling short when money’s the thing (and you have the money to spend, which is…hard to explain away, Kenny…it just is), instead of just the privilege of wearing the Winged Wheel.

It’s looking, Kenny, that you may not be the war-time consigliere we thought you were.  We may have to change your name to Tom Hagen.

I’ll be waiting.  And drinking.

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Comments

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Alan's avatar

Ward is known for making shiat up and throwing it at a wall covered in tar paper, hoping it manages to sticks.

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 07/26/12 at 10:33 PM ET

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You won’t be getting comments form Holland anytime soon as he’s currently VACATIONING in BC.

Cue the ‘Holland on the Golf Course’ photo?

Posted by Cary from Japan on 07/26/12 at 10:41 PM ET

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Love watching the Wings losing their luster. No Lidstrom, aging stars, and no one WANTS to sign there anymore.

Posted by Nic Zamora from United States on 07/26/12 at 10:44 PM ET

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Wow took the words and pbr rate out of my mouth, fantastical please Kenny do something!!!

Posted by Tommy B from canton on 07/26/12 at 10:45 PM ET

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7 is not. 

If it includes a contract longer than one year, then yes it is.

Posted by Garth on 07/26/12 at 10:47 PM ET

NIVO's avatar

in no day and age can i or could i believe that Doanbag would be our highest paid player. No effin way. If he gets more than what Pasha makes, it will piss me off. Whether we need him or not. I dont really care what the market bears currently.

Posted by NIVO from underpants gnome village on 07/26/12 at 10:48 PM ET

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In years past, Kenny Holland has been praised as being as near a god as one can get.  He misses out on a few free agents, and suddenly everyone is ready to have him hunted down and killed?  Come on now… Have faith in Kenny, he really hasn’t steered us wrong yet.  He’s the smartest GM in the game for a reason.  I’d rather not pay a possibly unmotivated Semin 7 mil.  If Doan’s going for more than 7 for more than 3, that’s a No too.  I have faith in the GM, whether or not it works out.

Posted by Steve from Florida on 07/26/12 at 10:55 PM ET

CaptNorris5's avatar

I. Miss. Steven Gregory Yzerman.

Posted by CaptNorris5 from The Winged Wheel, stuck in Chicago on 07/26/12 at 10:57 PM ET

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Is this nothing more than a lack of talent left in this free agent pool?  Unless some large trade that is about to loom, I am not overly impressed.  What are we doing on defense?  Rather large shoes to fill on the back end, and not overly impressed with the scoring touch that is presently employed.

Posted by Gerald from California on 07/26/12 at 11:01 PM ET

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Rather large shoes to fill on the back end

Not really, we’ve got Brendan Smith, and when you think about it, he has twice as many NHL games under his belt as Nick Lidstrom has Norris trophies, so we’re set!

Posted by Garth on 07/26/12 at 11:14 PM ET

Red Winger's avatar

In years past, Kenny Holland has been praised as being as near a god as one can get.  He misses out on a few free agents, and suddenly everyone is ready to have him hunted down and killed?  Come on now… Have faith in Kenny, he really hasn’t steered us wrong yet.  He’s the smartest GM in the game for a reason.  I’d rather not pay a possibly unmotivated Semin 7 mil.  If Doan’s going for more than 7 for more than 3, that’s a No too.  I have faith in the GM, whether or not it works out.

Posted by Steve from Florida on 07/26/12 at 09:55 PM ET

Though in the minority, I’m with you. Kenny didn’t become complacent or stupid overnight.

Let’s take a breath here.

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 07/26/12 at 11:18 PM ET

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Kenny didn’t become complacent or stupid overnight.

The counter argument would be that no, he didn’t.  It’s been since summer 2008 that Kenny signed a significant free agent.  Since then it’s been several years of losing players for nothing or forcing loyal players to retire in favour of players who are out of AHL options but haven’t proven that they deserve a spot on the roster.

So, the counter argument would that it’s been not instant but gradual, culminating in this inability to address even a single one of the several stated needs that the Wings had coming into the free agent season.

Posted by Garth on 07/26/12 at 11:35 PM ET

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Holland didnt become stupid overnight ...on that I do agree. He has been stupid for some time now and I am tired of him getting ridiculous praises for very little. Since the cap he has brought home 1 cup in ten years or so. So what? Last year Babcock stated the obvious…that we needed more depth up front…Hollands answer was trading a first round pick for a defensemen that not many are impressed with in Kyle Quincey and we sure paid for Hollands lack of getting it done in the playoffs last year. Now this year he has whiffed on Parise, Suter, Weber, Semin, Nash, qnd several others. In a rare year when we actually have loads of cap space it seems as if hes trying to be frugal with the owners money as he throws nearly 4 mil a year towards Kyle Quincey? lol.
  And hiss answer to losing Hudler, Holmstroms age catching up to him, Listrom, And Stuart is 6 goal scorer Jordin Tootoo(who prolly cant even crack the lineup) an aging Samuelson, and a backup goalie and he is HAPPY with that? Please fire this joke.

Posted by adam99 on 07/26/12 at 11:39 PM ET

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$7 mil. is not too much for Shane Doan ??

Just because he was captain of the Coyotes and their #1 everything doesn’t mean thats what he’s going to be as a member of the DRW.  If Holland offers him any more than $5 mil. a season consider it an insult to Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Posted by Hockeytown Wax on 07/27/12 at 12:04 AM ET

tuxedoTshirt's avatar

Jordin Tootoo(who prolly cant even crack the lineup)

This guy will be a favorite of one and all by late in the year, I guaran-damn-tee it.

Posted by tuxedoTshirt from the Home of the 1937 World Champions on 07/27/12 at 12:14 AM ET

Mex-eye-can-dy's avatar

Though in the minority, I’m with you. Kenny didn’t become complacent or stupid overnight.

Let’s take a breath here.

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 07/26/12 at 10:18 PM ET

I agree.  Maybe Doan is saving the best for last.

Posted by Mex-eye-can-dy on 07/27/12 at 12:14 AM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

Posted by
              Hockeytown Wax
             
              on
              07/26/12 at 11:04 PM ET

Giving them a player that will help give them an edge to win the stanley cup is an insult?

When I joined the Army, my MOS had no enlistment bonuses being offered.  When I get to AIT, I find the platoons ahead of us and the ones coming in behind us, all got 10k to 20k(the max)  fuchin’ was what it was.  Do you think we did our job any less because others got a perk, got an incentive to join WHEN they did?  Whatever you gotta do to get the best qualified people in the spots you have deficiencies.  Bottom line.

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 07/27/12 at 12:15 AM ET

Keyser S.'s avatar

Wings fans are on suicide watch!

Give us something Kenny!

A new system! I’ll settle for that.

2 rookie of the year candidates? I’ll settle for that.

Posted by Keyser S. on 07/27/12 at 12:21 AM ET

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Giving them a player that will help give them an edge to win the stanley cup is an insult?

Thinking that adding Shane Doan to this roster give them and edge to win the Stanley Cup is an insult…to our collective intelligence.

Posted by Garth on 07/27/12 at 12:24 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

You know that there’s no GM in the league that’s won more than one cup since the lockout, right?

Whatever. Shane Doan can roll around in $7M while Mike Commodore throws tiny pickles at him for all I care. Dude’s got grit, heart, leadership… and just about as much skill as Samuelsson.  I’d love Doan for about $5M, but 2.5x Sammy’s salary?

Guy doesn’t have THAT much heart.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 07/27/12 at 12:26 AM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

Guy doesn’t have THAT much heart.

         
              Posted by
              J.J. from Kansas
             
              on
              07/26/12 at 11:26 PM ET

I don’t like it anymore than you, I’m being a realist about his market price.  He’d also fit the coaching style Babcock is trying to employ given the talent level of the lineup, and even if he doesn’t have loads of true skill, he does fit the system Babs is going for perfectly.  He also engages games quickly, which has been a bad habit for the Wings the past few seasons.  He’s definitely a Selanne type though,  guy looks like he’s 23, durable as hell, you know what you’re going to get out of him, very consistent in that regard.  So no, I don’t like 7m for him based on the salaries on the roster, but given player availability that wont cost assets in return, yeah I’d do it.  What else are we doing with that cap space?  Same amount we were trying to use to get Suter and Parise, we can’t get Doan and another good D (assuming we trade for one) with it?

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 07/27/12 at 12:44 AM ET

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Player contract amounts , within the constraints of the larger business decision, have a neutral value.  The larger goals of a franchise work in concordance with it’s mission statement(s).  A mission statement for the Tigers might be to “...win the AL Pennant.”  A goal, organizational philosophy might be “...we are a power hitting team.”  So,  the DH (Martinez) out for the season and Ilitch asks Dombrowski what players are available whom equal or even better Martinez’s performance level.  First, Tigers agree that are participants in the market for a power bat.  Second, their goals define their level of interest or commitment. Third, player contract amount is inconsequential and this is how you sign a guy at 214MM. Of course their are situations, very rare, like market distortions which can disrupt biz decision process.  In my view, 13 year, 98MM for a 47 point per year defenceman is indeed a market distortion-in the form of an “outlier.”  Despite what we’ve all heard outliers have a very specific definition which is “...at least 3 or more standard deviations from the mean.”  These outliers and market distortions make player contract amounts a leading indicator, which is adverse to the above biz process.  So when Helene St. James states that 7MM per 1 year is a high risk move, I disagree. The contract amount is certainly not a outlier.  The Wings mission is Stanley Cup contention, every year. Got it. Goal scoring has been the Wings M.O. for years and years. Got it.  Detroit’s goal scoring in this last years play-off was way down. Got it. As of today, the best available, proven goal scorer is/was Semin.  PAY HIM. Elite coaches like Bowman, Phil Jackson, Daly, find ways to weave certain players into their team design: think Federov, Rodman, Isiah and even Coach K and Durant (who said he doesn’t like playing with Lebron).  I’ll never really know, but this off-season is really looking like Olympia Entertainment, Ilitch Holdings may have a cash flow issue.  Btw, I love Mike Ilitch, he’s kept this city afloat for years, and I’ll be buying L C pizza’s every week.

Posted by beelza on 07/27/12 at 12:53 AM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

I think I saw a couple other threads you haven’t posted that in yet beelzabub wink

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 07/27/12 at 01:17 AM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

Man, I don’t know. There’s just something unsettling about it, especially if it’s multiple years for Doan.  I don’t want the Wings to necessarily carry the same cap space bullshit just to see it go unused, but I also don’t want them to use it just because we feel we have to have Shane Doan to get through the entire year.

I’m completely ready to throw a shitty salary at one of the two or three defensemen (on a short-term deal) because there’s really nobody else in Grand Rapids that’s ready to even be given a serious shot at playing the role we need that D-Man to fill. We’ve got a nice little handful of kids who I’d like to see given a shot at playing the role of scoring goals that Doan would be around for.  Sure, none of them have those “intangibles” that Doan has or, apparently, that Dallas Drake-like drive to will the team not to suck on certain nights, but if we have to throw some of them into the water and see which ones can keep their heads above water, that may not be a bad thing.

I don’t think that role and all the cap space has to be filled before the season starts.  I understand that’s the same idea as last year and I’m fully aware of where that got the Wings last year. That doesn’t mean the Wings should do the complete opposite.

I guess what I’m saying is that I’m ok with drowning children and that is Ken Holland’s fault.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 07/27/12 at 01:22 AM ET

BrendonR's avatar

Doan anything more than a $5 mill/yr player (already a stretch)??  The Chief has truly lost it.  Not sure how he became Steven friggin Stamkos all of a sudden just because the market says so.  Kenny not overspending on Parise/Suter and Semin was the right move.  $7 mill for Semin??  People are going crazy this off season….one coming directly prior to a likely salary rollback.  Plus dont forget Yandle and Ryan are still out there.  But 7 million for Doan or Semin?  The 19 has lost all perspective it seems.  He knew Lidstrom could retire (but remember, there was a good chance it didn’t happen) and ended up coming damn damn close to landing Suter, much closer than Holmgren or that clown Shero.

Posted by BrendonR on 07/27/12 at 01:38 AM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

I don’t think that role and all the cap space has to be filled before the season starts.  I understand that’s the same idea as last year and I’m fully aware of where that got the Wings last year. That doesn’t mean the Wings should do the complete opposite.

I guess what I’m saying is that I’m ok with drowning children and that is Ken Holland’s fault.

         
              Posted by
              J.J. from Kansas
             
              on
              07/27/12 at 12:22 AM ET

I’m 100% for drowning kids.  I could see the benefit of Doan but I’ve resigned myself to the roster we’re going to ice at the start of the season and I’m not mad at it.  I think the team as it stands is a very blue-collar team and will be forced to work instead coasting by on skill and spending the last 20 minutes trying to come back and win the game.

I think we have a good amount of grit out there now as well that our smaller skill guys should be getting a little bit more space which I think will translate to more points.  Gus looked VERY ready, especially with Pav in the short time we saw him.  People hacked Smith’s D but in reality it was better than what we usually see from Q or Kindle or on occassion White or Kronners.  Smith can roll and I think he’s hungry to put himself into the upper echelon, born leader type.  I’m excited about the uncertainty of our young guys, I’m thinking and hoping they’ll strut their stuff.

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 07/27/12 at 01:52 AM ET

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Geeze… It’s not your money to spend nor is it Ken Holland’s.  If Illitch says, “no Ken, we cannot spend that much money on a 36 year old 20 goal scorer,” then so be it.

The fact of the matter is, spending 7+ million on a 36 year old, Dan Cleary 2.0, is not smart, even for one season.  Hell, Samuelsson can probably put up as many points as Doan can at this point.

Far too much bitching this offseason, these aren’t gems, and people are just looking for whatever crap they can find to plug the holes.  Sometimes, letting the kids play isn’t such a bad thing.

Posted by Chris Lundin from Kensington, MD on 07/27/12 at 02:15 AM ET

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OverH - My genius deserves repetition.(jj/k)  So whats your point?  Chief asked for a lesson in economics, my degree is economics, so I gave him one.  Fans, season ticket owners need to know when they’re given a bullshiite reason as to why their team has yet to improve.  Money ought not be the reason Semin and Doan don’t sign in Detroit.  And if money is indeed the sole reason, then Holland is no where near the genius I thought him to be.

Posted by beelza on 07/27/12 at 03:22 AM ET

NIVO's avatar

then lets put it another way. Doanbag is looking for a paycheck. Doanbags HEART is and will be in Phoenix. No thx.

Posted by NIVO from underpants gnome village on 07/27/12 at 05:05 AM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

Posted by
              beelza
             
              on
              07/27/12 at 02:22 AM ET

Preaching to the choir brother!

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 07/27/12 at 05:05 AM ET

RorSchach's avatar

Offering Doanbag more mulah than Pasha and Z is flat out retarded. I feel that Doanbag would be nice for the team.. but not for 7 Mil. Hell, 5 is pushing it.

Just my .02 cents.

Posted by RorSchach from Datsberg on 07/27/12 at 08:16 AM ET

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If Illitch says, “no Ken, we cannot spend that much money on a 36 year old 20 goal scorer,” then so be it.

Yeah, except that’s not how it went down and you know it as well as we all do.

Posted by Garth on 07/27/12 at 08:27 AM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

I hate to start thinking that it was the glimmer and appeal of the Winged Wheel that made Kenny look so great over the years…but I am.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 07/27/12 at 08:38 AM ET

stonehands-78's avatar

Cue the ‘Holland on the Golf Course’ photo?

Posted by Cary from Japan on 07/26/12 at 09:41 PM ET

tick? ... tock? ...

Posted by stonehands-78 from the beginning ... a WingsFan, on 07/27/12 at 08:44 AM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

maybe Kenny’s plan is to wait until December-ish and re-evaluate the younger players to see who is doing well and who is not, then make moves then.

or maybe not.  I don’t know.  but he’s got to have SOME sort of plan, right?  doesn’t he?

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 07/27/12 at 08:58 AM ET

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maybe Kenny’s plan is to wait until December-ish and re-evaluate the younger players to see who is doing well and who is not, then make moves then.

I’m just waiting for the day in mid-September when he reminds us all that he has plenty of cap space to make moves at the deadline, should he need to.

You know, like last year…

Posted by Garth on 07/27/12 at 10:06 AM ET

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Doan anything more than a $5 mill/yr player (already a stretch)??  The Chief has truly lost it.  Not sure how he became Steven friggin Stamkos all of a sudden just because the market says so.  Kenny not overspending on Parise/Suter and Semin was the right move.  $7 mill for Semin??  People are going crazy this off season….one coming directly prior to a likely salary rollback.  Plus dont forget Yandle and Ryan are still out there.  But 7 million for Doan or Semin?  The 19 has lost all perspective it seems.  He knew Lidstrom could retire (but remember, there was a good chance it didn’t happen) and ended up coming damn damn close to landing Suter, much closer than Holmgren or that clown Sher

People go crazy every off season, summer of 2012 has been talked about for 2 years so if Holland didn’t want to spend or be frugal he should’ve made some moves last year.  I’m sick of all the Holland apologists who claim that Wings fans are “spoiled” and “whiny”.  No, we just expect more from a GM who’s considered a deity by most of the “fans”.  Again Lidstrom has been signing 1yr contracts for the last few years and Stuart wanted to go back to the West Coast since he signed his deal, how can Holland and Co be caught flat footed?

Posted by booyah! from chicago on 07/27/12 at 10:08 AM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

how can Holland and Co be caught flat footed?

I don’t think they were.  I think it’s just a different hockey world where the Wings have lost their “it’s where you go to have a shot at the Cup” luster, thanks to parity.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 07/27/12 at 10:27 AM ET

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“Kenny’s the smartest GM in the game.”

You sir, are on crack.

Kenny’s been shining his cups for three years now. Hasn’t addressed a SINGLE possible forward-looking concern. Has missed out on getting free agents. Has allowed his young-ish goal scorer leave the team after spending years developing him over a measely $500k/year and now has the gaul to say they need to add scoring. Has known for years that Stuart and Lidders time was about up and never gave Smith time to learn from them. Has continued to let the team get old. Has allowed yes-men like Chelios to be the spokespeople for the team…

There are so many more reasons. But that’s ok. Keep drinking the MSM kool-aid and stare at those faded, gathering-dust posters from the 97, 98 and 02 teams on your basement wall.

And by the way…some of the free agents are being overpaid, but that has and always will be the case. It’s called life-in-the-NHL. Poop or get off the pot, Kenny. Players aren’t going to go to Detroit and accept a mil or two less just because they can be privleged of wearing a uniform which has lost luster in the last few years thanks to the cap and your pisspoor management.

Posted by ElCapitan on 07/27/12 at 10:34 AM ET

Nate A's avatar

then lets put it another way. Doanbag is looking for a paycheck. Doanbags HEART is and will be in Phoenix. No thx.

That’s exactly what I fear with him. Don’t care for the guy in the first place, but I really don’t want him if it’s gonna be Mike Modano 2.

Posted by Nate A from Detroit-ish on 07/27/12 at 10:41 AM ET

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Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog since 1977.  No other site on the internet has better-researched, fact-laden and better prepared discussions than A2Y.  Re-phrase: we do little research, find facts and stats highly overrated and claim little to no preparation.  There are 19 readers of A2Y. No more, no less. All of them, except maybe one, are juvenile in nature.  Reminding them of that in the comment section will only encourage them to prove that. Your suggestions and critiques are welcome: wphoulihan@gmail.com