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Ken Holland On Deadline Trades

from Ted Kulfan of the Detroit News,

“I don’t envision us trading away players who could be part of our future,” general manager Ken Holland said. “Those are the players other teams will be asking about.”

“I don’t know if there are many players on the market who we feel are better than (young players the Red Wings currently have),” Holland said.

“I see us going into 2014-15 as a young team,” Holland said. “Given what these young players have shown here, what they’ve accomplished in the AHL (winning Calder Cup), and players we have down there, it’s working that way.”

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RhymeTimeWingsDings's avatar

Most definitely!  And the glossary is awesome as well.

Posted by RhymeTimeWingsDings on 02/05/14 at 09:05 PM ET

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social media platform in either health or organizational setting.

There’s nothing healthy about this place.

Posted by maltby18 on 02/05/14 at 09:13 PM ET

cigar_nurse's avatar

I read a Stat the other day that said 1 in 4 men in Russia die by the age of 55 due to alcoholism. Hope the 19 won’t compete with that.

I think the Wings should forget about Vanek and try for Matt Moluson instead.

Posted by cigar_nurse from Greenville South Cakalakee on 02/05/14 at 09:56 PM ET

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Posted by some kid on 02/05/14 at 03:04 PM ET

The only thing I disagree with is slotting Smith in at #4 next year.  Ericsson was allowed to develop because he never had to be worried about being overwhelmed because he had Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart and Kronwall ahead of him.

That’s why I think the best thing for smith would be playing every game with a steady partner on the third pairing.  Get an actual top four defenseman for a couple or three years, let Smith make mistakes as a #6 guy, slowly work him into the top four if he does grow the way we hope he can.

I think the worst thing for him would be to rush him.

Posted by Garth on 02/05/14 at 10:15 PM ET

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Holland made huge, aggressive signings in this past offseason with Alfredsson and Weiss, stuff that wasn’t on the radar at all.  The year before that he moved a #1 for Quincey.  He signed Tootoo.  Dekeyser.  Brunner.  Got Kronwall, E, Howard, Datsyuk all locked up long term.  That’s just in the past few year and I don’t think it’s a complete list.

Yes, let’s look at the “genius” that is Holland.  Alfredson was not on the Wings radar, it was Alfredsson’s agent who called the Wings and asked if they would be interested in Alfredsson, so pure luck just like with Hossa.  Weiss signing? Thus far a washout, an undersized center who has never fulfilled his potential.  How’d those signings in 2012 work out?  Dekeyser?  What a coup that was, he grew up a Wings fan and was a lifelong friend of Jim Nill’s son.  It was a given he was going to sign in Detroit, but only after Holland, begrudgingly agreed to allow him to compete for a roster spot on the team as opposed to becoming a “man” in Grand Rapids first. 

[

Lack of aggression and/or fear aren’t Holland’s problems.  His ‘problem’, as far as it goes, is that not every season is the time to make a significant move, nor are there such moves available even when the time is right

Yes indeed, that is why he re-signed guys like Cleary and Bertuzzi and kept Nyquist in the AHL.  Holland is scared to take chances which is why the vets play and the kids sit, if not for injuries Nyquist would still be in Grand Rapids and Tatar would be watching games from the suites at the JLA. 

And not for nothing, but a huge part of the reason Detroit has this logjam of kids you’re so concerned about is… because Ken bleeping Holland runs the front office that found and got all of them in the first place.  It’s a nice problem to have, this thing where there are more prospects than spots available, no?  It’s a damn sight better than it used to be in Holland’s first few years as GM where the big names on the farm were Butsayev, Wallin and Kuznetzov.

I thought it was Jim Nill that ran the draft? 

Yeah, I kinda like having Nyquist and Tatar up with Jurco, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen and Mantha behind them at forward.  Maybe let’s put away the torches and pitchforks with Holland’s name on them for a bit.

Again, if it was not for injuries the kids would not even be playing.  “The kids aren’t the answer” or even better “The NHL is a man’s league”. 

Top 2 or 3 GM’s in the NHL?  He’s not even the best GM to work for the Ilitch’s.  Even for the biggest and most fervent Holland supporters the last few years of moves have had to be a bit disheartening.  His free agent moves have mostly been busts, he is over loyal to veterans at the expense of prospects.  Holland can’t even correct his mistakes, when Wings players get waived no team will touch them, yet it was the “genius” who signed them in the first place.  Even his under study bamboozled him into trading a 1st round pick for Kyle Quincey. 

 

Posted by bababooey on 02/05/14 at 11:54 PM ET

SK77's avatar

The only thing I disagree with is slotting Smith in at #4 next year.  Ericsson was allowed to develop because he never had to be worried about being overwhelmed because he had Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart and Kronwall ahead of him.

That’s why I think the best thing for smith would be playing every game with a steady partner on the third pairing.  Get an actual top four defenseman for a couple or three years, let Smith make mistakes as a #6 guy, slowly work him into the top four if he does grow the way we hope he can.

I think the worst thing for him would be to rush him.

Posted by Garth on 02/05/14 at 09:15 PM ET

Ever write something and then realize you had a giant brain fart?

Probably not, but in this case I realized I forgot about DeKeyser after writing all that ... for some reason I always forget about him. That’s probably a testament to his capabilities and steadiness.

Giving Smith more time in the #5 slot would be great, but especially with a steady partner. Even better would be someone who could actually mentor him and that Smith could pick up good habits from. Which is why I thought he’d mentor well under Ericsson as a #3/4 pairing if a #1/2 could be found for Kronwall, but that totally sleights DeKeyser who is obviously better.

Dunno.

Posted by SK77 on 02/06/14 at 12:24 AM ET

MsRedWinger's avatar

I’ve been away too long.  My mind is fuzzy. I agree with HD.  Shit.

But, having said that…

I like our team.

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 02/05/14 at 05:07 PM ET

Good to see you, Master Chief!

Posted by MsRedWinger from Flori-duh on 02/06/14 at 09:01 AM ET

SnLO's avatar

SnLO, I don’t understand this critique.
Posted by captaineclectic on 02/05/14 at 10:47 AM ET

Recent trade inactivity aside, making a trade for the sake of a trade is not likely to neither improve this team nor improve its chances to compete for the cup. Unless an opportunity for a franchise player or potential franchise player arises, the best course of action is for this team to remain intact and develop. The log jam of prospects increases competition for roster spots thereby improves the quality of the team. Later, Holland will then be in position to trade the cast-offs to plug holes (if needed).

If this team were on the cusp of being a cup winner, then the trade of prospects for a player that fills a team weakness to push them over the top would make sense. This team is not at that point. Maybe they can surprise and win a cup, but that is not their projected outcome. There is no area in need of strengthening that is not being projected to get reinforcements from the pipeline. So no need to acquire something you already have.

Most likely any trade is going to result in another Samuelsson situation where the players pushing to get on the roster are better than the player in the roster spot and said veteran cannot be cut from the team because the CBA prevents it and the more deserving player is stuck in GR with the message boards howling for his inclusion in the team and calling for Holland’s head for acquiring the player in the first place which he did because they were calling for his first born to be sacrificed because they wanted a trade when he wasn’t inclined to make one.

Do you better understand my critique now?

Posted by SnLO from beyond the M-1 on 02/06/14 at 11:02 AM ET

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Ever write something and then realize you had a giant brain fart?

Absolutely.

Giving Smith more time in the #5 slot would be great, but especially with a steady partner.

Yeah, that’s why I think it’s important to get that legit top four defenseman.  If they have four solid guys they could have a veteran top pair then each of the other two could serve as a mentor to the #5/6 guys.  For the sake of argument you could have Kronwall/DeKeyser as the first pair, Ericsson/Smith as the second and “X”/Ouelette(or Kindl or Lashoff) as the third.

Posted by Garth on 02/06/14 at 12:00 PM ET

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Recent trade inactivity aside, making a trade for the sake of a trade is not likely to neither improve this team nor improve its chances to compete for the cup.

What I don’t understand is why the, for lack of a better word phrase “anti-trade people” think that the “pro-trade people” want a trade just for the sake of a trade.

Nobody, but nobody, wants a trade that will not improve the team or its chances for the cup.

Posted by Garth on 02/06/14 at 12:10 PM ET

SnLO's avatar

What I don’t understand is why the, for lack of a better word phrase “anti-trade people” think that the “pro-trade people” want a trade just for the sake of a trade.

Speaking only for myself, I would fall in the anti-trade segment because, based on what it appears the conditions of the current trade market, I am in Holland’s corner on the basis of his remarks:
“I don’t envision us trading away players who could be part of our future,” general manager Ken Holland said. “Those are the players other teams will be asking about.”
“I don’t know if there are many players on the market who we feel are better than (young players the Red Wings currently have),” Holland said.

With that understanding I perceive the pro-trade segment to be making trades for the sake of trades when I read comments (in context with the statement made by Holland) like:

If I were Holland I would be kicking the tires on
Gonchar
Zidlicky
Vishnovsky
Girardi
Morris
Edler

In my opinion, a trade for any of those above mentioned (or player of similar stature) would generally be a static or potentially at loss to what would be given up in return, and likely exacerbate the roster / salary cap issue.

I’m all for a trade, provided the right conditions (which I’ve previously mentioned) exist. Currently, I’m not seeing those conditions in the league trade market and I don’t expect they will form. Furthermore, I don’t think just because Holland missed the boat on a trade in the past doesn’t mean he needs risk a mistake to try make up for it now (not that anyone has specifically made a statement to that effect).

Posted by SnLO from beyond the M-1 on 02/06/14 at 12:42 PM ET

Primis's avatar

“I don’t know if there are many players on the market who we feel are better than (young players the Red Wings currently have),” Holland said.

And now we reach the crux of all the problems.

We don’t want the young players replaced, by and large.  We want the dead-weight, do-nothing vets replaced.  One of Smith/Kindl maybe is the lone exception to that rule.  That Holland continues to spew this absolute B.S. really gets on my nerves.

Kindl, Smith, and Quincey aren’t cutting it.  Quincey never will at this point, complete and utter bust.  Kindl may be out of time finally, and it doesn’t look so great for Smith.

I still maintain it’s not the market, it’s that Holland just isn’t even really trying.  We hear that DET is supposedly in on trying to get Player X or Y, but then after that player is moved we then find out 3 or 4 teams actually tried and DET is never among them.

I said this on Twitter the other day, but I think Holland is done.  I think he’s honestly mailing this season in, and he’ll retire in the offseason.  I don’t think he necessarily knew he was going to at the start of the season, but he now knows the mess the team is truly in and I don’t think he wants to mess around with it.  So he’ll do nothing, retire, and let someone else sort it out without doing anything that could come back to him later.  I also think he’s way, way too attached to players at this point and doesn’t want to do something to upset any of them.

Posted by Primis on 02/06/14 at 01:15 PM ET

SK77's avatar

I said this on Twitter the other day, but I think Holland is done.  I think he’s honestly mailing this season in, and he’ll retire in the offseason.  I don’t think he necessarily knew he was going to at the start of the season, but he now knows the mess the team is truly in and I don’t think he wants to mess around with it.  So he’ll do nothing, retire, and let someone else sort it out without doing anything that could come back to him later. 

Posted by Primis on 02/06/14 at 12:15 PM ET

Them’s some strong statements there, Primis.

Just out of curiosity, what’s the seppuku-worthy mess that you see at the start of next season? A bunch of expired vet contracts replaced by more-than-capable players you helped draft and groom?

Posted by SK77 on 02/06/14 at 01:28 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

That is hilarious Paul, and thanks Iwocpo.

Posted by RWBill from cruising Brush Street with creepy Rob Lowe. on 02/06/14 at 01:38 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

Consider the source, some kid.

Posted by RWBill from cruising Brush Street with creepy Rob Lowe. on 02/06/14 at 01:40 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

TRISH are you going to the game tonight?  My daughter and bf are driving down from Flagler.

Posted by RWBill from cruising Brush Street with creepy Rob Lowe. on 02/06/14 at 01:42 PM ET

Primis's avatar

Just out of curiosity, what’s the seppuku-worthy mess that you see at the start of next season? A bunch of expired vet contracts replaced by more-than-capable players you helped draft and groom?

Posted by some kid on 02/06/14 at 12:28 PM ET

I’ts not that the roster is seppuku-worthy.  It’s that I think he’s just plain done, and he’s not going to do anything now that could be viewed as screwing things up for the Next Guy.  So he’s going to do nothing.

Also no, there is nobody in the org coming in to fix the blueline, which is the single biggest need.  So no, help is not on the way next year there.  Yes some vet forwards will expire along with Quincey presumably but… while that helps the cap room, that doesn’t help the team.  And Holland knows that.  He also sees that d-men are at a premium around the league right now because so many of the younger ones haven’t exactly panned out for some reason or various reasons (Erik Johnson, Mike Green, Tyler Myers, Zach Bogosian, etc), even as capable vets have still retired and gone.

Ken Holland has not been the same for at least a few years now.  The past few actual trades he’s done seem more like trades another GM talked him into than anything he’s actually worked himself.  He literally seems scared to trade now.  I just think he’s maybe done.  Which is too bad, since he let Nill fly the coop just this last offseason.

Posted by Primis on 02/06/14 at 01:52 PM ET

Slumpy's avatar

Weiss will be back as will The Mule but this team won’t get back to the The Final without adding a solid defenseman. We got to many kids on the back end and Howard is good but no Brodeur or Sawchuk.
Holland may want to hold onto all his GR Calder Cup winners for a longer look or he may shock us by trading one or two of them away. Kenny’s moves will depend on if he thinks this team can win a SC now.
Honestly I think it’s ridiculous to think all our prospects are untradeable.
Only so many 1 dollar deals out there like the Draper one lol.
Gotta give to get in this world.

Posted by Slumpy from Detroit on 02/06/14 at 11:24 PM ET

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Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog since 1977.  No other site on the internet has better-researched, fact-laden and better prepared discussions than A2Y.  Re-phrase: we do little research, find facts and stats highly overrated and claim little to no preparation.  There are 19 readers of A2Y. No more, no less. All of them, except maybe one, are juvenile in nature.  Reminding them of that in the comment section will only encourage them to prove that. Your suggestions and critiques are welcome: wphoulihan@gmail.com