Kukla's Korner

Abel to Yzerman

Jimmy Howard Has Had Enough

via Dana Wakiji tweets,

Howard: We got to win games. There’s nothing else you can say. Got to go out there and execute.

Howard: A lot of us are sick & tired of talking abt it & that’s what it seems lk we’ve been doing. We got to go out there & do it.

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Comments

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I agree Jimmy, don’t let 3-4 goals in.

Posted by George0211 on 03/13/14 at 01:48 PM ET

Itrusteddrrahmani's avatar

Not that I think this is Jimmy’s fault (we really need to score more goals), but in four of his last five starts he’s let in 3 or more goals. So I think he’s right that everyone needs to step it up. That said, the best time to get hot is now!!

Posted by Itrusteddrrahmani from Nyc by way of A2 on 03/13/14 at 02:14 PM ET

Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit's avatar

Do or do not. There is no try.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4yd2W50No

Lets Go Red Wings!!!!!

Posted by Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit on 03/13/14 at 02:17 PM ET

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Howard is having a miserable season. That said, the defense is brutal at worst and inconsistent at best. Ericsson has been really bad since the Olympics. Kronwall has proven to be good but not a top-flight #1. DeKeyser has been ok but uneven. Quincey has played better, as has Smith but neither are more than bottom-pair guys as of now. Lashoff and Kindl have been bad lately.

Let’s assume we don’t make the playoffs (hard to make it when the team has Glendening and Emmerton playing center). Could’ve signed Legwand in the offseason and used Jarnkrok to go get a top-pair defenseman…

We HAD to try to get into the playoffs, even missing 13, 40 and losing 43 to an injury prior to the trade. What does short-sighted mean?

I digress. I’m sorry. I couldn’t help myself.

Carry on. I’m in sour grapes mode, guys.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/13/14 at 02:27 PM ET

RedMenace's avatar [quote]Lashoff and Kindl have been bad lately.

If you don’t mind, could you explain your reasoning behind that statement?

Posted by RedMenace from the Church of Jesus Lashoff on 03/13/14 at 03:00 PM ET

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What does short-sighted mean?

I think short-sighted means thinking that since we’re injured now, there’s no reason to bother even trying to get into the playoffs with the possibility of getting all our injured players back and icing a team that’s comparable to the one that was an overtime goal away from making the conference finals last year.

Posted by Garth on 03/13/14 at 03:01 PM ET

Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit's avatar

Making the Playoffs is the only thing that matters.

In the Playoffs, anything goes.

Lets Go Red Wings!!!!!

Posted by Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit on 03/13/14 at 03:17 PM ET

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Posted by RedMenace from Team Slovaskimo Fighting Snipers on 03/13/14 at 03:00 PM ET

Lashoff plays sheltered minutes and lost his spot a couple times in the last month to Kindl. Kindl, on the other hand, has gone out and played badly to the extent that Lashoff played the next game. I just haven’t been impressed. It may have to do with the forward group most often on the ice with Lashoff that is contributing as well. But overall, neither Lashoff or Kindl can establish a spot in any kind of emphatic fashion.

Garth - I guess my idea of long-range thinking extends beyond 2-3 months…

The idea of doing anything to make THIS YEAR’S playoffs not knowing whether you will get Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg back and to what degree you will get their services, puts a big monkey wrench into your argument, in my eyes.

The continued recollection about last year’s run is flawed, in my opinion. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were healthy last year for the stretch run. This year, that is far from the case. Zetterberg MAY be able to return sometime during or after the first round, hopefully. Datsyuk, as of the trade deadline, will be re-evaluated in 3 weeks. That means in 3 weeks, he might be able to try skating again. So to what extent these guys can do what they do is seriously in question, now and into the playoffs. It is entirely possible that neither player would get to the point of being ready, even if the team made the playoffs. And without Z last year, the team doesn’t get out of the first round.

Amidst all that uncertainty, as well as losing Helm the day before the deadline and having no idea when Stephen Weiss would return, I look at that entire scenario and think: “There’s way too many uncertainties, what-ifs, and best-case scenarios required to work out in the Wings’ favor to have any chance of doing something in the playoffs to expend this type of an asset.”

That’s why I believe sacrificing the #1 prospect in the Wings’ system as of the beginning of this season to be a short-sighted proposition.

The other issue is that while you bring up the whole “being one goal away from the WCF” argument, a separate argument can be made that the Wings were one goal away from losing in the first round in 6 games. Had that been the case, the entire perspective of this season (and the decision to acquire Legward) would be slanted completely differently. There’d be no frame of reference to say “look what happened last year by just getting in the playoffs.” Additionally, I believe the expectations would be completely different. When the team made that run last year, it had everyone surprised, since there were serious doubts that the team would be able to make the playoffs. If Anaheim scored in overtime in game 6 and won, there wouldn’t be this hope that the team is much better than we all thought. It’s funny how things turn out.

Anyways, I would have understood making the move a heck of a lot more if 13 and 40 were going to be back, for sure, during the stretch run. There’s just way too much uncertainty with these injuries - key injuries, at that - to gamble that badly, especially when everyone knows we need a top-2 defenseman and the free agent class doesn’t have any appealing names on it. It would have been much better to keep Jarnkrok and trade him for a defenseman, if they were so intent on moving him.

And keep in mind, I don’t have any beef with Legwand. He’s a fine player. Just a bad decision to give up that good a prospect to gamble on making the playoffs amidst a whirlwind of uncertainty.

The speculation I’ve heard is that Chris Ilitch is running the show from the owner’s box and told Ken Holland he needs to make the playoffs.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/13/14 at 03:26 PM ET

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Posted by Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit on 03/13/14 at 03:17 PM ET

This.

Garth - I guess my idea of long-range thinking extends beyond 2-3 months…

Seems to me you’re not even thinking beyond this moment right now.

Posted by Garth on 03/13/14 at 03:40 PM ET

MOWingsfan19's avatar

Finally someone at least has the stones to say what everyone else is thinking. The canned responses and cliches wore thin a couple years ago.

Posted by MOWingsfan19 from I really like our team on 03/13/14 at 03:44 PM ET

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I don’t see how it is short-sighted to try to make the playoffs, even if we are icing a minor league team.
Holland and Red Wings as an organization aren’t just going to throw in the towel.
We are only 2 points out, the season isn’t lost yet

Posted by George0211 on 03/13/14 at 03:47 PM ET

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I’m not advocating throwing in the towel. What I am saying is: pick your punches. Like Kenny Rogers says, “you gotta know when to hold ‘em and know when to fold ‘em.”

Think of it as a poker hand. You’re in a poker tournament. You’re in 8th place. You’ve got a pair of 5s in your hand and the flop comes down and it’s Ace-King-Jack. You don’t go make a big bet in that situation. It’s reckless. You wait and ride it out and see what happens in the next hands.

I am going to propose a question to you: How would you feel if, under the philosophy of “make the playoffs,” Holland dealt Mantha, Mrazek, Jarnkrok, Sproul and Pulkkinen? At what point is it not worth it to trade the future away for guys that can help with an immediate goal?

My opinion is simple, that there are way too many injuries (primarily 13 and 40, who may not return in any case this year) to hedge one of the best prospects for a 2nd line center in hopes of making it to the playoffs in a year with your two best players injured and no return in sight.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/13/14 at 03:59 PM ET

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I am going to propose a question to you: How would you feel if, under the philosophy of “make the playoffs,” Holland dealt Mantha, Mrazek, Jarnkrok, Sproul and Pulkkinen? At what point is it not worth it to trade the future away for guys that can help with an immediate goal?

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/13/14 at 03:59 PM ET

But that’s not a fair question to ask, because that didn’t happen. Wings traded away a prospect at a position that they are deep in and could afford to lose him. Legwand was a necessary move, IMO. By the way, Holland explicitly said that Mantha is untouchable. Also, Wings management was considering Jarnkrok a bottom 6 forward. I highly doubt, he will ever turn out to be a better player than Legwand in his career, but only time will tell.
Also, another reason for thinking Legwand was a good move is Helm. Am I the only one that thinks Helm might be done as a player? The guy can’t seem to play more than a few games without getting hurt.

Posted by George0211 on 03/13/14 at 04:07 PM ET

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I don’t think Helm is done. But I’d rather see the team move on and cut bait.

My point in my question was: at what point is the cost too much for the benefit? There is a point in every one of your mind’s when you would feel the price is too much. That’s what I was trying to ask. For me, under these circumstances, Jarnkrok was too much to give up.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/13/14 at 04:26 PM ET

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I don’t think Helm is done. But I’d rather see the team move on and cut bait.

My point in my question was: at what point is the cost too much for the benefit? There is a point in every one of your mind’s when you would feel the price is too much. That’s what I was trying to ask. For me, under these circumstances, Jarnkrok was too much to give up.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/13/14 at 04:26 PM ET

Yes, at some point the price can be too high, but I don’t think this was too high of a price, considering the circumstances. In your hypothetical question, you asked what if they gave all their prospect, in that case yeah Holland should be fired. But that’s not what he did, he gave up a prospect that was expendable.

Posted by George0211 on 03/13/14 at 04:29 PM ET

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Yes.
I think Helm should be done. At least with the Wings. He may have good speed, but lets face it. He has no hands and has played a handful of meaningful games the last couple years. It’s ridiculous. They should have traded him for whatever they could have gotten for him at the deadline. They also should have traded other underperforming vets for whatever they were worth. This team needs to be fixed and has needed adjustment for the last 3 years.

Posted by teldar on 03/13/14 at 05:21 PM ET

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Posted by teldar on 03/13/14 at 05:21 PM ET

What type of market do you think exists for these underperforming veterans? Teams had the choice to have, for free, Samuelsson and Emmerton. They could’ve had Cleary for nothing, as well, had they asked. If someone called Ken Holland asking for Dan Cleary, he’d have been traded.

The Wings are in 9th place in the Eastern Conference. Cleary and Samuelsson can’t crack the lineup of a team desperate for stabilization and scoring. The problem is: those two guys can’t keep up anymore.

Sammy will go back to Sweden after this year and Cleary….maybe he gets a tryout somewhere. Or he retires.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/13/14 at 06:46 PM ET

cigar_nurse's avatar

We have put 3 underperforming vets on waivers and no one claimed them.
Who says Legwand re-signs this summer and instead signs with a SC contender?

It’s not over until the fat lady sings, and these kids may still surprise us. If we do make it, Babbles will get much of the credit for it justafiably

Posted by cigar_nurse from Greenville South Cakalakee on 03/13/14 at 06:46 PM ET

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Seems to me you’re not even thinking beyond this moment right now.

Posted by Garth on 03/13/14 at 03:40 PM ET

Garth, please explain how not wanting to focus on the immediate month and a half in lieu of keeping a guy who can help the team for 10 or more years in the future is short-sighted on my part? Or that I am not thinking beyond this moment.

I’m not sure I understand your argument.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/13/14 at 06:50 PM ET

shanetx's avatar

... to focus on the immediate month and a half in lieu of keeping a guy who can help the team for 10 or more years in the future is short-sighted on my part?

There is absolutely no guarantee Järnkrok would ever have helped the Wings, or any other NHL team for that matter.  No matter how much you may or may not follow the Wings prospects, Ken Holland knows more, has access to more, and has seen more than you ever will on Calle Järnkrok.  And he, two weeks ago we hated for not giving up on guys, was ready to give him up for Legwand.

Posted by shanetx from Floydada, Texas on 03/13/14 at 08:17 PM ET

RedMenace's avatar

Lashoff plays sheltered minutes and lost his spot a couple times in the last month to Kindl. Kindl, on the other hand, has gone out and played badly to the extent that Lashoff played the next game. I just haven’t been impressed. It may have to do with the forward group most often on the ice with Lashoff that is contributing as well. But overall, neither Lashoff or Kindl can establish a spot in any kind of emphatic fashion.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/13/14 at 03:26 PM ET

I don’t think he lost his spot to Kindl due to lack of performance; more like Kindl needed to play, and Babcock wanted him “sheltered” as well. I mean, Smith has been in the press box just as much, if not more… and of the young defensemen, Smith has been the most erratic by far.

Normally I’d quote some statistics to back my argument, but I’m freaking exhausted and don’t really care that much.

I honestly think Lashoff would be fine given more ES minutes, which just might take some of the pressure off of the top two pairings and help everyone be a little more consistent. Can he really be any less reliable than Smith and Quincey in the defensive zone?

I submit that he can NOT.

However, it appears you’ve become embroiled in another discussion here, so I won’t bother you.

Posted by RedMenace from the Church of Jesus Lashoff on 03/13/14 at 08:25 PM ET

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That’s why I believe sacrificing the #1 prospect in the Wings’ system as of the beginning of this season to be a short-sighted proposition.

But even if Jarnkrok was the #1 prospect in the system he certainly wasn’t by the deadline, and this leaves out his either perceived or real unwillingness to play in the AHL for another full season.

He was a good prospect.  He was not a great prospect.  I don’t think it’s out of bounds to suggest that as a prospect he was passed by Nyquist, Jurco, Tatar, Pulkinnen and Mantha by the time he was traded, and that’s just at his own micro-position of offensive forward.

Further, I believe you present something of a false choice.  There is not an either or between short or long term planning.  One can engage in both things simultaneously without hamstringing one or the other.  IMO I’d have rather the Wings not made the trade, but having made the trade they did I don’t think it will have an appreciable impact on the teams long-term fortunes.

explain how not wanting to focus on the immediate month and a half in lieu of keeping a guy who can help the team for 10 or more years in the future is short-sighted on my part?

Because your position requires never trading either a prospect or a pick, because the ‘possible value’ of a prospect or pick will always be able to exceed the ‘likely value’ or a current NHL player.

I don’t think short sighted is the proper adjective, but silly comes closer.

When you have upwards of 7 young viable offensive forwards of varying degrees in your prospect pipeline, trading the 4th or 5th of those for a current player when your immediate need at that position is extreme isn’t a ridiculous notion.

If, as I suspect, Holland knew in advance of the deadline that Datsyuk was going to miss weeks rather than days, as was originally noised about by the organization in battlespace preparation, then moving Jarnkrok makes sense. 

With D, Z, Franzen, Weiss, Nyquist, Jurco, and Tatar Detroit has a fairly established logjam of at least top 6ish forwards.  Add in Pulkinnen and Mantha and future picks and all of a sudden it starts to look like an uphill climb where somebody is going to get left behind.  Maybe it would have been Jarnkrok, maybe not.  Either way, moving a prospect now when Detroit can have some influence over who goes isn’t any less inherently costly to their prospect pool than it would be to move one of those guys in a year or two because they can’t find a spot on the ice for them.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 03/14/14 at 07:34 AM ET

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It is no secret I liked Jarnkrok. And the idea of “offensive forward” is skewed to suit your argument. He’s a two-way center with a ton of offensive upside. The center part of that statement is important. None of the other guys who surpassed him are centers.

The other thing is, at the end of the day, I can live with moving Jarnkrok. I’ve come to terms with that. But the Wings already have a glut of centers (Datsyuk, Helm, Weiss, Glendening, Andersson, Sheahan). Trading for another one for the purpose of making the playoffs this year seems reckless and short-sighted. Why not help the team in the long-run and get the top-pair defenseman we need instead? There’s no one to sign this offseason. So is Holland going to have to burn another prospect or two in order to get that guy? What’s the plan there?

Posted by VitoLambruski on 03/14/14 at 09:07 AM ET

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Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog since 1977.  No other site on the internet has better-researched, fact-laden and better prepared discussions than A2Y.  Re-phrase: we do little research, find facts and stats highly overrated and claim little to no preparation.  There are 19 readers of A2Y. No more, no less. All of them, except maybe one, are juvenile in nature.  Reminding them of that in the comment section will only encourage them to prove that. Your suggestions and critiques are welcome: wphoulihan@gmail.com