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Abel to Yzerman

Is Modano A Done Deal Already?

An interesting day awaits Wing fans on Tuesday.  Much of our time will be spent remembering Bob Probert, while a smaller bit of our attention will be devoted toward wondering if Mike Modano’s final season will be played wearing the Winged Wheel.

It’s starting to look like it’s much more than an “if”, though.  He’s taking a trip “home” tomorrow to meet with Wing execs, because I guess at age 40 discussions of salary and systems can’t be done over the phone, eh? 

Mike Heika/Dallas Morning News

“It’s such an intriguing place,’’ he said of Detroit. “They want to win and they can win now. They have great players and a great system. They believe they can find a way for me to fit in. It’s flattering that they think I could help them, and I really want to see if that’s possible.’‘

 

Don’t stop there.  Tim Cowlishaw, also of the DMN, seems convinced it’s a given.

I think Modano’s better served by finishing his career elsewhere, even if that means coming to town as a visitor in Red Wing red for the home opener.

I realize that’s painful to think about. Consider the number of Detroit fans that show up for Wings-Stars games in the best of times here at American Airlines Center . Put Modano on the other side, and Wings coach Mike Babcock might as well get final say on line changes.

I’ve been wrong, twice I think, in the last four years.  So here goes again…he signs tomorrow.  If not then, it’s only because the Wings are classy enough to delay it a day or two out of respect to Probie and his family.

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Comments

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Baroque's avatar

Considering the team can exceed the salary cap by 10% until the season starts, why the hell not. Go over and see how many forwards break elbows or blow out knees in training camp and miss the next six months.

Posted by Baroque from Michigan on 07/06/10 at 01:27 AM ET

Andy from FightNight's avatar

I like this idea.

Posted by Andy from FightNight on 07/06/10 at 01:28 AM ET

FranzensMouthguard's avatar

I’m sorry, I love Modano, but this is a move NOT to make…he’s not anywhere what he used to be and I don’t see some miraculous Detroit cure making him lose 5 years and go back to the speedy sniper he was.

Posted by FranzensMouthguard from Chicago, IL on 07/06/10 at 01:45 AM ET

Jennemy of the Skate's avatar

I’ve always liked Modano but I don’t know if I think this is such a great move for him or the Wings.

Posted by Jennemy of the Skate from the bar car on the stress train on 07/06/10 at 01:55 AM ET

redxblack's avatar

Meech filed for arbitration, so the cap space is up in the air.

I’d rather have Hudler than choppers on the squad.

Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 07/06/10 at 02:23 AM ET

Alzy's avatar

I’m really torn on this.

If Uncle Mike really is serious about putting the Circus back together, and having Wally centre the second line, then I have to admit I see Modano as a more viable third line centre than Gator, if our third is going to be a scoring line, as has previously been stated by Uncle Mike. I don’t want to lose Gator by any means, but I just see Modano being a better offensive fit with Happy and Buckets, because outside of a few flashes of brilliance, Gator is pretty much Taz minus the unbelievable defensive play.

However, if the supposed Circus reunion only lasts half a period, then where does Modano fit? Put him on Dangle’s wing maybe, having Wally centre the third line with Happy and Buckets? Does he get scratched? And in all of this, what would happen to Gator? I can’t see him being in at the fourth line centre position over Taz, and Uncle Mike has already said he believes Gator is better at centre versus the wing. it would do nothing but stunt Gator’s growth to have him sit for half the year, and when he does get ice time have him play in a position he’s not suited for.

It really sounds like Modano signing in the short-term is a boost to a supposed third scoring line for the upcoming season, but potentially harmful in the long-term. I don’t want to lose Gator, who could very well turn into a versatile scoring/grinding centre, just to bring in a hometown guy for one year.

Posted by Alzy from Cambridge, Ontario, Canada on 07/06/10 at 03:02 AM ET

Alzy's avatar


Meech filed for arbitration, so the cap space is up in the air.
I’d rather have Hudler than choppers on the squad.
Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 07/06/10 at 01:23 AM ET

I’m thinking Meech only filed to attempt to ensure a roster spot with the Wings. I’m sure he and his agent are aware that they aren’t going to get a salary increase awarded. And they also know Meech wouldn’t receive an offer sheet.

It strikes me as a guy who realizes he’s possibly 90% assured of being dumped by the greatest organ-I-zation in sports, and is scraping and clawing using every trick in the book to try and stay on.

If we don’t re-sign the Pylon, or sign a cheap UFA defenceman, then Meech’s job as team whipping boy is probably safe. One of those scenarios happens though, and Meech is history, the Wings will let him walk regardless of what the arbitration ruling is.

Posted by Alzy from Cambridge, Ontario, Canada on 07/06/10 at 03:10 AM ET

Chris in A^2's avatar

I really like the idea of Modano centering a line with Hudler and Cleary on his wings.  My issue is that if, for the same cap hit, they could bring back Lilja or get Willie Mitchell, they’d be much better off going that route.  I’m much more comfortable with having some combination of Gator, Helm, Draper and Miller centering the third and fourth lines than I am with Ericsson and Kindl as a third defensive pairing.

Posted by Chris in A^2 from Nyquist Puck Control on 07/06/10 at 03:52 AM ET

AvsRock's avatar

but potentially harmful in the long-term

I wouldn’t think Modano would affect the long term.
Isn’t this supposed to be his final season.  He’s getting kind of old.
I would be very, very surprised if Modano signs anything other than a one-year deal.

If you’re speaking about player development.  Well, a team could do worse than Modano when it comes to teaching the young uns’. 
He has been through everything from consecutive playoff seasons to how to come back after multiple serious neck injuries.  He could also teach humility and true sportsmanship.  How many others have lost their captaincy, been demoted from the first to the third or fourth line, and still lived and bled for their team?
Remember, he didn’t ask to leave Dallas.  They kindly showed him the door.

Posted by AvsRock from My timeshare in insanity... on 07/06/10 at 04:15 AM ET

Lucce's avatar

I put my trust in Tick Tock regarding this, if they sign him to a three year deal I’m behind it. I hope Meech doesent do a Quincy….

Posted by Lucce from Kingdom of Zweden on 07/06/10 at 06:52 AM ET

George Malik's avatar

He’s talking to the Chicago Tribune about joining Chicago, too.

Posted by George Malik from South Lyon, MI on 07/06/10 at 07:11 AM ET

Osrt's avatar

Agree with Chief.

Also agree with Holland. Modano has been a favorite non-Wing for me and I think he would be very very useful for us. He would push Franzen and Tuzzi (Dohmer!) for their spots, especially Tuzzi. And all you haters would love that.

Andrew from A2 and I met up here in Berlin and we talked a lot about Modano. He’ll explain his view but I’m pretty convinced that he would be a tremendous boost and our team would be a great boost for him too. Meech shouldn’t be looking to stay with the Wings in my opinion. He can be a really effective player if he is given the minutes and long leash that Quincy is; a fresh start for Meech; I wan’t to see him stay and flourish in the NHL.

I’d be bummed about losing Miller though. I want him in our organization.

Posted by Osrt on 07/06/10 at 08:16 AM ET

monkey's avatar

Aargggdgdhhhhhh I want answers.  I WANT THE TRUTH.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 07/06/10 at 08:47 AM ET

monkey's avatar

  but potentially harmful in the long-term

I wouldn’t think Modano would affect the long term.
Isn’t this supposed to be his final season.  He’s getting kind of old.
I would be very, very surprised if Modano signs anything other than a one-year deal.

They’d have to cut a youngster in order to make roster space for him.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 07/06/10 at 08:48 AM ET

ITDeuce's avatar

Sign em.  As long as the price is right.  I would absolutely love to see him in the Red and White.

Speaking of Quincy did you guys see the deal he got?  2 years, 6.25 million.  Seems like a lot for a guy who has only played 2 seasons worth of games in the NHL.

Posted by ITDeuce from The Sunny High Desert on 07/06/10 at 09:23 AM ET

Jeff  OKWingnut's avatar

09-10 Reg Season:

2.72 G/G (14)

2.52 GA/G (7)

Pretty obvious to me that the Wings need scoring help.  The Oompa Loompa is a significant upgrade over J-won’t.  Insert Modano’s 14 G, 16 A, and that should help too (which would have been 9th in points for DET, 6th in goals).

Hola Chief.

Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 07/06/10 at 09:39 AM ET

Avatar

I wouldn’t think Modano would affect the long term.

Well, if signing him means dumping Miller and Ritola then it absolutely, no question, affects the long term.

I certainly hope this doesn’t happen.  PLEASE don’t let this happen.

Posted by Garth on 07/06/10 at 09:59 AM ET

Avatar

Pretty obvious to me that the Wings need scoring help.

I think it’s more important that we have a relatively healthy season and that our highest scorers do better than 70 points on the season.  Add in Hudler, chalk up Helm, Eaves, Miller and Abdelkader for bigger offensive seasons and look for Ritola to chip in some points and you don’t need a 40 year old guy at the end of his career.

And do his 30 points cancel out Miller’s 22 AND whatever Ritola would put up?

Does Modano’s one year make up for losing Miller and Ritola longterm?

Please don’t do it, Kenny.  Please…

Posted by Garth on 07/06/10 at 10:16 AM ET

Cliff's avatar

I’m in.  This team will face injuries again.  It won’t be as bad as last year, but yes, I want more offensive players on this roster.  Adding Hudler and Modano to last year’s squad?  Absolutely.  Three scoring lines instead of two?  Yes, please.

It would be disappointing to lose Miller.  But long term, we’ve got Abdelkader, Helm and Eaves to grind.

Additionally, this team has found plenty of grinders from the scrap heap to come in and play their role over the years.  Cleary.  Samuelsson. Drake.  McCarty.  Eaves.  Miller.  I’m confident that Kenny can find another one if needed.

And furthermore, this team has had to make tough decisions before.  I’d rather go to camp with these hard choices that need to be made (Kyle Quincey for example), and let camp sort it out.  If Miller earns his spot, then I’m sure we can get value for trading Abdelkader or Eaves if necessary.

Posted by Cliff on 07/06/10 at 11:28 AM ET

Nathan's avatar

I like Modano, I think he still has a lot to give, and not just defensively (would be HUGE on the point for us on the second PP).

He still skates like Paul Coffey or Sergei Fedorov, and while we’ve already got guys with wheels (Draper, Helm, Eaves, Miller, Abdelkader), he adds goal scoring hands none of those guys have or will ever have.

The problem I have is where does he fit?

Homer / Dats / Z
Franzen / Filppula / Bertuzzi
Hudler / Abdelkader / Cleary
? / Helm / ?

That’s set. I can see Drew Miller as the 13th, so let’s pencil him in there. Eaves has more upside, so if you keep him, you want him in the lineup. That makes the fourth line (and extra forward):

Eaves / Helm / ?
Miller

Modano would suck if he played on the fourth line. That’s what Dallas did wrong. But he’d look real good on a third scoring line with a shooter like Hudler and a net-front guy like Cleary. So, move Abdelkader to the fourth line if you sign Modano, b/c he’s on your third line. Now your bottom two (and reserves) are:

Hudler / Modano / Cleary
Eaves / Helm / Abdelkader
Miller

Looks great, actually… till you realize you have Drapes. Bottom line is that Abdelkader has to play. He has to play around 10 - 12 minutes per game, otherwise he will be a waste of talent that could never develop. The or-gan-I-za-tion doesn’t sell out guys like Draper… so it’s really hard to see him in the press box.

So the question on Modano is, are you willing to get rid of one of Eaves/Miller, and then whichever you keep, are they willing to be #13? All of this, keeping in mind Ritola is out of options, so you’re essentially making him a wasted prospect. Which isn’t the end of the world, he hasn’t lit the world on fire in GR. But it’s still something to think about.

Unless there’s something we don’t know about, like a Draper retirement, there’s just too much depth. In Kenny I trust… ideally, we’d want 14 forwards and we’d find a way to stash whoever from Eaves/Miller/Ritola we can even though they have no options, but I just don’t see how that can be done.

One more fun thing to think about—Eaves and Miller were both huge reasons the PK was so good last season. Modano requires you to sacrifice one of them for sure.

If they sign Modano, my guess is they go to camp and see who of Ritola/Draper/Eaves/Miller look the best. Draper won’t be traded, obviously, but he might be forced into the Kirk Maltby role. Nobody will trade for Ritola… he’s a total unknown at the NHL level, and doesn’t have high-end talent to make the risk worth a trade for someone. So you’re basically hoping that Ritola looks really good in camp, at least comparable to Eaves/Miller, so you can trade them. And now you’ve throw out some good, cheap 7 - 12 forward spot talent that could solidified your depth for the next few years otherwise.

Just lots of dilemmas here. I hope there’s a scenario that makes sense that I’m not seeing… Modano would fit in with this team really well…

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 07/06/10 at 11:49 AM ET

RWBill's avatar

I said from the outset if we have to part with a couple of that large set of forwards to get Modano on board, if for the low end home town discount that still leaves us the desired wiggle room under the Cap, we absolutely do this.

I’m as appreciative of the work ethic and grinding PK contributions of Eaves and Miller and the playoff energy of Abdulkader as any RW fan, but none of them have the ability to create dynamic offensive synergy with other Wings like Modano does.  If we lose 1 or 2 of those guys, I’ll repeat we don’t give up Helm in this scenario under any circumstance, for just 1 year of Modano we jump on this.

But year after next how would we replace Miller?  What, a 25 year old hockey player who will skate his guts out for a chance to play in the NHL for $550,000?  My word, how would we ever find such a player?  Well each draft has about 120 forwards, 100 of whom fit that description.

And you don’t think Miller or other potential Modano sacrificial lamb is not going to be squeezed severely in 2 years by Tatar and others?  Miller may not even make the grade here in 2 years anyway.

It’s probably a long shot anyway, but it would be done for for the reason of substantial talent upgrade and not for some sentimental reason some have intimated.  Homie don’t play that.  Modano is Drake like inspiration plus a significant boost in talent above what Drake was.

“Everything has a story, and everything has a price.” - Pawn Stars.

Posted by RWBill from cruising Brush Street with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 07/06/10 at 12:21 PM ET

J.J. from Kansas's avatar

You know what, yeah, go ahead and sign Modano and get him to camp.

I know he said he doesn’t want a fourth liners role, but that’s Babcock’s goddamn decision and not Mikey Mo’s.  If the dude can’t earn third line center in camp then it’s asta lo-bye-bye.

I REALLY like Helm and Abdelkader.  I will probably flagellate myself (in the bad way) later for saying this, but they’ve hardly earned shit.  The only player that has earned being a Red Wing at the end of camp based on what he’s done for the team is Kris Draper and even at that, he’s earned the right to be guaranteed a spot as the #14 forward.

I want Ritola to succeed because I’m waiting for the next Datsyuk/Zetterberg to come out of our system (after Filppula decides which one of those he’s going to be), but sink or swim, motherfauxer. 

These decisions don’t have to be made now and fortunately, they don’t have to be made by me.  They’re going to be made by people much smarter about these things than I am.  At camp’s end, they’ll be made by Babcock and Holland.

If we end up having to waive a guy who goes on to be decent then oh well.  I miss Kyle Quincey too, but I’d be even more sad if we were ever in a spot where we thought to give him over $3M a year to be on our 2nd pair.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 07/06/10 at 12:40 PM ET

Animal Drew's avatar

He’s talking to the Chicago Tribune about joining Chicago, too.
Posted by George James Malik from South Lyon, MI on 07/06/10 at 06:11 AM ET

Well, we’ll either love him or hate him next season.

Posted by Animal Drew from A Nightmare on Helm Street on 07/06/10 at 12:42 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

Glad Chief started a new thread, I wanted to answer a couple of other things but it wasn’t appropriate on the Probert Tribute thread.

I think it was J.J. Who asked if my Daughter becoming a Call Girl, I mean Cali girl, means I will be an empty nester, and yes.  I’ve already experienced a couple of panic attacks where in my face has flushed and turned red and my vision blurred.  I inherited an insane streak of nostalgia and sentimentality from my dad, and I know no matter that I’m actually proud and excited for her if not a little bit jealous, when I return from southern California two weeks from today, drive home from the airport and late at night step into our house alone it’s going to overcome me and I may end up down on my knees wrenching my guts out into the toilet like a giant kick to the ‘Nads.  Hell, it’s even going to be too late to get the pets home from the kennel, JFC.

It will be a twin Nut Kicking, or maybe even monkey’s Nutcracker Suite, because if my other daughter’s plans go off accordingly, the same weekend I will be in Orange County with my youngest, she and her husband of 1 year will be moving to Winston-Salem where he starts Wake Forest Law.  So on the same weekend both of them will moving out of state. 

JFC, all the remnants around the house every step I take in any direction…....  WTF I told you this streak of nostalgia reaches insane levels.  I know it’s coming and there’s no way I’m dodging it.  My dad’s coping mechanism was to retreat to the furnace in the basement with his PBR and porn. 

Maybe I could learn from him but I’m going to be relying on my fake friends a lot this summer. 

Thanks for reading my essay in self-pity, unfortunately for my fake friends it probably won’t be the last.  There’s an intense level of bittersweetness to this whole thing.

Posted by RWBill from cruising Brush Street with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 07/06/10 at 12:54 PM ET

Nate A's avatar

Nothing I can add to Nathan’s take on the situation.

I can deal with losing Ritola for Modano. Rather not lose Eaves or Miller. If it happens, my preference would be to rotate Draper and Abby to the box until injuries start to hit. Play Modano on the 3rd line between Hudler/Cleary/Bert.

I figure if he signs for about $1M, Ritola is traded/waived, that leaves about $1.2M for a 7th D-man. Hopefully that means someone with some seasoning, and not Meech. The discussions about Willie Mitchel could be great, but I think he’s beyond our price reach regardless.

Posted by Nate A from Detroit-ish on 07/06/10 at 01:03 PM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

finally someone realized that “giving up” a young guy like miller or ritola would have to happen anyway with tatar coming up, who would it be?  He’s going to be pushing for a roster spot at training camp, but he’s only got a year left in the minors at my guess solely for the fact detroit needs depth on scoring, that’s what wins the cup.  Modano gives you that this year, guys coming up will do it next year (Fil Sr. could definately be a viable option next year for sure, along with Tatar)

So for everyone who for some reason thought Miller Eaves Ritola and Eaves would be with us forever, if it’s not this year it could definately be next year, by other young guys, so why not bring on veteran experience of a hall of famer.  Hull worked out pretty well with Hank and Pav eh?  Pull him in, The cup will be ours.

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 07/06/10 at 01:04 PM ET

HockeyTownTodd's avatar

I still say invite him to training camp for evaluations before offering a contract.
Modano is not the lone ranger this year for GM’s seeking experienced dwindling talent.
Guerin at 39 is still available, and so is John Madden at 37.

Posted by HockeyTownTodd on 07/06/10 at 01:18 PM ET

MarkK's avatar

Modano as an old goat with 2 young bucks a la Hull with Datsyuk and Devereux.  Love it .

Posted by MarkK from Maryland on 07/06/10 at 01:26 PM ET

Guilherme's avatar

I’d like to have him (if cheap), even if it means some weird messing with Helm, Eaves, Abdelkader, Miller and Draper on the 4th line. A “Cleary-Modano-Hudler” line would look good, and we know at some point of the season Franzén and Holmstrom (and probably Bertuzzi) will have their annuals two-weeks injuries (at least).

Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 07/06/10 at 01:32 PM ET

Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit's avatar

I certainly hope this doesn’t happen.  PLEASE don’t let this happen.

Posted by Garth on 07/06/10 at 08:59 AM ET

I agree. No to Mikey Mo.

John Madden at 37.

Posted by HockeyTownTodd from A. K. A. NostraGrampus on 07/06/10 at 12:18 PM ET

He seems to me like the better fit but I said that a while back.

Lets Go Red Wings!!!!!

Posted by Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit on 07/06/10 at 01:36 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

I thought Madden was a great pickup by the Hawks last year, could be again for someone this year.

I’m already embarrassed at my writings, you’d think I’d be used to it.

HTT I still do have Netflix.  It may have been you who told me to look for There Will Be Blood.  I saw it recently on a cable channel,  pretty interesting start getting into the oil industry.  Thought it was going to reveal more battles with the established oil corps but it went more into relationship with the local property owners and church.

I’ll look up the movie you mentioned this weekend, which with Chief back equals six threads in two days.

Posted by RWBill from cruising Brush Street with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 07/06/10 at 01:39 PM ET

Down River Dan's avatar

Sign him. Sign him now!

At anything less than $ 1 mil he is a steal. Guaranteed 15 goals.

Uncle Mike can put him out in ANY situation without worry.

Modano on the 2nd PP unit? Forget about it!

With Mule healthy and Happy back home, I predict 7 20+ goal scorers.

Sign Him now!!

Posted by Down River Dan on 07/06/10 at 01:44 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

Did I say “dynamic offensive synergy”?

I will not tolerate such DoucheBaggery and neither should you!

Posted by RWBill from cruising Brush Street with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 07/06/10 at 01:46 PM ET

stonehands-78's avatar

... if we give up some younger player(s) [I’m NOT liking that idea for many reasons] for MM,
at age 40, ...
for a curtain call, ...
cause he’s from Livonia, ...
and could help the scoring, ...

BUT he gets hurt, ... then what do we have?

Just say’n.

Is it October yet?

Posted by stonehands-78 from the beginning ... a WingsFan, on 07/06/10 at 01:47 PM ET

dougie's avatar

I won’t bore you with the long list of body parts that don’t work as well when you hit age 40.
They don’t make “little blue pills” for most of them.
Forget this.

Besides, it would just make it waaay too easy on the MSM to trot out their 43rd iteration of “Detroit is OLD!”

Posted by dougie on 07/06/10 at 02:05 PM ET

Guilherme's avatar

Besides, it would just make it waaay too easy on the MSM to trot out their 43rd iteration of “Detroit is OLD!”

Helm is God.

And why do I keep forgetting Ritola? Where does he fit, even without Modano?

Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 07/06/10 at 02:11 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Ryan Dixon of THN compares Modano to Larionov,

Modano would slide into the Wings’ No. 3 center hole, where he would be expected to play an efficient two-way game while churning out modest offensive totals.

How does 43 points sound? That’s exactly what Larionov contributed to Detroit in each of the 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons while averaging about 14 minutes per game over that span.

(And if Modano played a full season in red, mark him down for 50 points, easy.)

more

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 07/06/10 at 02:18 PM ET

HockeyTownTodd's avatar

I’ll look up the movie you mentioned this weekend,
Posted by RWBill
I doubt I mentioned ‘There will be Blood’, it has been a long time since I saw that.
I did enjoy it.

That Showtime series from down under…‘Satisfaction’...
uh,
Wait until after your daughter has left for the left coast.

Posted by HockeyTownTodd on 07/06/10 at 02:19 PM ET

Cliff's avatar

Here’s another thing.  I don’t think it will happen, but I’m not ruling it out.

Drapes could end up going back and forth in Grand Rapids.  Yes, he has to clear waivers, but at this age, and at his salary, no team would touch him.  Not unlike McCarty a few years ago and Maltby this coming year.

His agent will make it clear that if someone claims him, that he will retire.  And his new team would be responsible for the ~$1.5 cap hit, as a 35+ player.  Plus the bad publicity with the NHLPA if a GM pulls a stunt and tries to claim Drapes.

So if Drapes is the 13th or 14th forward, why keep his cap hit?  Put him in GR, and he can be brought up later if/when injuries/playoffs happen.

Now, Cleary-Modano-Hudler and Helm-Abdelkader-Eaves are your bottom six, and Miller is #13.  Maybe Ritola as #14.  Drapes and Malts are in GR as #15 and #16.

And if not, I believe that some GMs have learned after Kyle Quincey that if Detroit has excess talent, you’d better go get it.

Posted by Cliff on 07/06/10 at 02:25 PM ET

HockeyTownTodd's avatar

(And if Modano played a full season in red, mark him down for 50 points, easy.)
Posted by Paul

There has been a lot of changes in the game since Larionov skated for the Wings.

Posted by HockeyTownTodd on 07/06/10 at 02:25 PM ET

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Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog since 1977.  No other site on the internet has better-researched, fact-laden and better prepared discussions than A2Y.  Re-phrase: we do little research, find facts and stats highly overrated and claim little to no preparation.  There are 19 readers of A2Y. No more, no less. All of them, except maybe one, are juvenile in nature.  Reminding them of that in the comment section will only encourage them to prove that. Your suggestions and critiques are welcome: wphoulihan@gmail.com