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Abel to Yzerman

Trade Athanasiou?

from Helene St. James of the Detroit Free Press,

It would not be surprising to see the Wings trade Athanasiou. If they get a good offer – at least a second-round pick or a good prospect, preferably a defenseman – he could be flipped to help the rebuild.

As talented as Athanasiou is, he shouldn’t be as quiet as he is at times – last season he went for stretches of 10 and 15 games without a goal. That came even as he averaged 15:19 minutes per game, up from 13:28 in 2016-17. His average power play time increased to 1:44 from 1:13, yet he contributed only four points during man advantages....

Of the young NHL forwards who have trade value, Larkin, Mantha and Bertuzzi are not going to be moved. Athanasiou, though, could be on the block, and the terms of the new contract should help facilitate a deal. 

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Comments

hockeyfreak13's avatar

His average power play time increased to 1:44 from 1:13, yet he contributed only four points during man advantages

I’m not a fan of using AA on the PP. I don’t see him as much of a set-up guy or a true sniper. He may be Helm with more skill, but he’s still a Helm-type player. Most of his goals come on the rush when utilizing his speed. Ideally, he’d be a scoring threat on the PK, but I don’t know if his defensive game will ever be at a point where Blash can use him there consistently.

However, I’m sure AA views himself as a PP player and it only hurts his trade value if it looks like he’s not. Tricky situation.

Posted by hockeyfreak13 from Grand Rapids on 07/09/18 at 02:03 PM ET

TreKronor's avatar

I was very much in favor of trading him as quick as possible.  Then he did something sort of curious and signed this two year deal after quite the hold-out last summer. 

In my opinion that changes things quite a bit for the team.  According to Cap Friendly he also will still be an RFA once this two year contract expires. 

What I hope to see is he lights it up the next year and a half and we can trade him for a 1st round pick.  When he does become a UFA eventually, I don’t see him wanting to be in Detroit so I just don’t think we should pay him if he becomes a 25++ goal scorer. 

We’ll see what happens, but I feel a lot better about our options now.

Posted by TreKronor on 07/09/18 at 02:34 PM ET

Royal Grand Exalted PooBah's avatar

If anyone should be moved it is Nyquist. I have seen it posted that he only thrives on Zetterbergs line. If thats really true and Z’s time left on the team is short now is the time to move him.

AA is one of thte guys that can finish, has speed, and is young. Keep him. Yserman didn’t become a two way player overnight either.

Posted by Royal Grand Exalted PooBah from the basement of the Alamo on 07/09/18 at 04:58 PM ET

Paul's avatar

In other news…

Ted Kulfan of the Detroit News,

Gustav Lindstrom will get an opportunity to showcase his development next season – just not yet in North America.

The Detroit Red Wings’ 2017 second-round draft pick will play in Frolunda this coming season, one of the top hockey programs in Sweden.

Lindstrom, 19, is expected to be a top-four defensemen for Frolunda, and the Wings expect Lindstrom to excel.

continued

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 07/09/18 at 05:20 PM ET

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Trading AA for a second rounder is insane imo. Does not help rebuild one bit. Trading Nyquist on the other hand will save more money and help the rebuild.

Posted by VPalmer on 07/09/18 at 05:31 PM ET

duhduhduh's avatar

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 07/09/18 at 05:20 PM ET

Well let’s hope they have magic dust in Frolunda, cuz what i saw of Lindstrom live last summer was not very promising

Posted by duhduhduh on 07/09/18 at 05:31 PM ET

TreKronor's avatar

I have a feeling Lindstrom is the kind of like that bond grandma gave you when you were born.  You forget about it for a long time, then one day you remember it and you hope there’s a really nice surprise waiting for you.  Then you find out it isn’t worth much more than the paper it was printed on.

I’m not thinking about Lindstrom for another 4 years.

Posted by TreKronor on 07/09/18 at 05:53 PM ET

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Posted by VPalmer on 07/09/18 at 05:31 PM ET

Have to agree.  Just 4 or 5 years ago it was, we’ve got to pay abby 4m because 20 goal scorers dont grow on trees to, hes likely a 20 goal scorer over 82 games so let’s trade him for a… 2nd?!

Posted by ThatGuy on 07/09/18 at 05:54 PM ET

Nate A's avatar

I’m all for trading AA, but it has to be for similar level talent and similar age, not a pick. It also needs to be for Defense, or possibly Center. If CAR is willing to swap Justin Faulk for AA straight up, for example, I think that’s a deal you make.

Posted by Nate A from Detroit-ish on 07/09/18 at 07:50 PM ET

MurrayChadwick's avatar

AA should return more than a 2nd pick, he’s a real NHL’er, under team control with upside, who’s signed so that headache is not an issue for another team. The reason he’s up for grabs means we’re not getting a sure fire top pair guy, but it should be comparable, a young player who could be a top 2 or 3 dman in the right place with the right development.

Posted by MurrayChadwick from Holland Hate Hyperbole Town (HHHT) on 07/09/18 at 08:20 PM ET

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If CAR is willing to swap Justin Faulk for AA straight up

I don’t think Waddel is looking to get fired that quick? That’d be a gross over payment on Carolina’s side. AA isn’t worth that much. AA and a 2nd round pick is probably closer to what it would take.

Posted by benzanato on 07/09/18 at 08:38 PM ET

Down River Dan's avatar

I guess the question is, what can you get for him V.S. what the team needs. The most obvious need is a top 4 D-man, and I’m not sure he can bring this in return. The team has a plethora of D-man prospects who may, or may not,develop into Pro material. Don’t really need more of those.

So, what does he bring??? ....a 15-20 goal scorer…well that’s exactly what he is.

I doubt he can bring a 1st rounder. So, then what?..you trade a 20 goal scorer for a prospect who might score 20 5 years from now?

This team has very, very few finishers ( hopefully Zadina??) ,so why trade him at all….

Posted by Down River Dan on 07/09/18 at 11:43 PM ET

Alan's avatar

I’m all for trading AA, but it has to be for similar level talent and similar age, not a pick.

Agree completely. Don’t undersell the guy, KH. Flip him for someone of equal age and skill, otherwise it’s a terrible deal for the organization.

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 07/10/18 at 03:12 AM ET

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If they get a good offer – at least a second-round pick…

If HSJ thinks that’s a good offer I’ll have what she’s drinking. I know the MO in Hockeytown is to overvalue our own but good grief AA definitely warrants more than a 2nd round pick.

or a good prospect

This seems more reasonable, especially if they can land a d-man prospect.

Posted by Steve1306 on 07/10/18 at 08:12 AM ET

Primis's avatar

Trading AA for a second rounder is insane imo. Does not help rebuild one bit. Trading Nyquist on the other hand will save more money and help the rebuild.

Posted by VPalmer on 07/09/18 at 05:31 PM ET

Posted by Primis on 07/10/18 at 08:16 AM ET

MurrayChadwick's avatar

I not only think its a good idea to trade AA, I think Holland should make every effort to do so this year. AA is not going to stick with this team, there’s not loyalty or home town discounts in this guys future. He’s a historical malcontent, and likely will be an NHL vagabond, he’s certainly going to want to push for UFA to get to the highest bidder, which won’t be us. We need to convert this asset into another asset while he still has value.

Posted by MurrayChadwick from Holland Hate Hyperbole Town (HHHT) on 07/10/18 at 09:22 AM ET

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Ideally they’d wait and see how AA performs this season, hope he is on pace for 25 goals and move him for a 1st round pick or high end D prospect at the deadline.

Unfortunately, because they signed Vanek, the logjam is now. It’ll take some creativity to get good value with teams settling into final rosters.

Posted by evileye on 07/10/18 at 09:44 AM ET

duhduhduh's avatar

Posted by evileye on 07/10/18 at 09:44 AM ET

disagree.  He’s not the veteran scorer a cup contender would want for a run (especially with his work ethic).  I see him more as a building piece for team that, say, has D but needs forwards.

Posted by duhduhduh on 07/10/18 at 09:48 AM ET

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First point about the PP is misleading. We average over three PPs per game, which puts AA’s time at about 20+ seconds per PP. Hardly enough time for a rush let alone score, heck I’ve seen Z’s first line burn their 1:30 +/- and not register a shot on goal. AA has been down to centering the fourth line where no prospect has looked good,and also being moved all over. He was on a line with Larkin and Bertuzzi, where AA has set Bertuzzi up time and time again and B can’t finish. I agree, AAs stats aren’t where they should be, but his numbers come from 1000+ TTOI compared to 1600+ for Larkin and Z and 1384 for Mantha. Larkin’s stats are less than desirable for a forward with 1600+ minutes. These poor numbers for all players are relective of poor coaching. AA was fourth or fifth in points on the team which is refective of his TOI. Blashill wanted more shots on goal because the team was being outshot horribly so AA was taking low percentage shots just driving his S% down.

Posted by stateofmifan on 07/10/18 at 09:55 AM ET

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Posted by MurrayChadwick from Holland Hate Hyperbole Town (HHHT) on 07/10/18 at 09:22 AM ET

Yeah he’s got so much contempt for this club that he was the first RFA of the big three to sign and took a two year deal as opposed to going to arbitration as everyone expected. He’s going to be loyal to the team that pays him and plays him, if they try to run him out 7 minutes a night on the 4th line he’s going to want out, anyone would. And you can keep the defensive liability BS to yourself, being a 1 dimensional player doesn’t seem to be a problem if you’re a vet like Vanek. The guy has potential to be a consistent 25 goal scorer. It does no good to deal him for anything less than a top 4 D man, and coming off a short season they’re not going to get that right now. You can’t teach speed and he’s got great hands, coach and develop him properly and he’ll deserve the raise he’ll want after this deal is up. Oh and according to cap friendly he’ll still be a RFA after this deal, so I’d pump the brakes on dealing him for a hot minute.

Posted by MZ2215 on 07/10/18 at 10:10 AM ET

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Why rush to trade AA?

A 2nd?!

I’ll join the chorus of derision on that one.
Who does she thinks is worth a 1st - Jared Coreau?

Definitely better to trade Nyquist for at the very least the same plus a sweetener
at the deadline.

AA might not be a core player in Detroit long-term but knocking
him and his value, which HSJ always does, even if she’s mainly the team stenographer
is not helpful! I don’t mean that rival GMs are going say “but HSJ said he wasn’t worth more
than a #2 pick!”  But why go further down this road of making knocking this one player
a continual talking point?

I’m no coach and could’t say what AA’s ideal usage would be on the power play.
But a surprising proportion of his goals are scored with a sneaky, deceptive shot
that seems to beat goalies cleanly. That’s a weapon in addition to great dekes on breakaways.

Once Z and Nyquist have moved on, let’s see how the roster looks and where AA’s game is. I don’t see the rush.

Posted by Lefty30 on 07/10/18 at 10:36 AM ET

MurrayChadwick's avatar

Posted by MZ2215 on 07/10/18 at 10:10 AM ET

1) He was also the only 1 of the 3 that had arbitration rights, which speeds the process. 

2) Never said anything about being a defensive liability.

3) I’m not suggesting giving him away, if you can’t get value, don’t trade him. With the speed factor in today’s game, there’s a lineup that has that need, that would pay, I’m suggesting we take a defense player like him with the same question mark, will he develop into a really good player, or just a filler. 

4) The value in AA is that he is signed for 2 years and is still an RFA after that. So team control for 3 to 4 years tops. He held out stupidly last year, every GM knows it, you think your getting more value as he gets closer to being a UFA? He becomes more of a rental like Nyquist this year, and we should get more for AA than we do for Nyquist because of that.

 

Posted by MurrayChadwick from Holland Hate Hyperbole Town (HHHT) on 07/10/18 at 10:54 AM ET

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Posted by MurrayChadwick from Holland Hate Hyperbole Town (HHHT) on 07/10/18 at 10:54 AM ET

Fair points, I think we’re closer to agreement than it appears
1. The majority of what I read indicated it was more likely for it to take time to get his deal done, especially after last years shenanigans, so it came as somewhat of a surprise that he was the first one done and got the raise he did.
2. I took the attitude comments and rolled them into the other common knock on him, that’s my bad. Shouldn’t be so defensive. 
3. Completely agree. A 2nd may be good value depending on where it falls and what kind of season he has this year, but personally I think actually having a full camp with the team and playing a full 82 will produce some better results, maybe he’s worth a 1st or a legit D man (as opposed to a prospect) at the deadline or before the draft. Understand that if he puts up 15 goals in 82 games and is a pain in the ass in the room that 2nd round pick could change to a 3rd, but i think the upside is higher than the possible decline.
4. The team control is the biggest piece, but I think they have to wait and see what happens this year. Again, i believe coming off of last year that a 2nd would be the price, but also believe he’s as low now as he’ll be this year.

Posted by MZ2215 on 07/10/18 at 11:16 AM ET

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Why aren’t we talking about creatively getting rid of the real problems on the roster like Abby,Helm, and Luke?

Posted by SevensForTed on 07/10/18 at 11:33 AM ET

hockeyfreak13's avatar

coach and develop him properly

What should they be doing differently? I can’t find much fault with Blash has been using him. His most common linemates were Larkin, Nielsen, Tatar, Bertuzzi and Abby. Those aren’t bad players.

Why aren’t we talking about creatively getting rid of the real problems on the roster like Abby,Helm, and Luke?

Hard to be creative when it comes to NTCs.

Posted by hockeyfreak13 from Grand Rapids on 07/10/18 at 11:49 AM ET

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Posted by SevensForTed on 07/10/18 at 11:33 AM ET
I agree, only I blame our teams poor coaching for the abysmal performances of this team 30% of the time. It wasn’t until near the end of the third season that Blashill finally realized using his defense on rushes results in goals. Hopefully he’s learned more about coaching in the off season. It’s frieghtening to think we’re evaluating players under his system.

Posted by stateofmifan on 07/10/18 at 11:53 AM ET

Colin's avatar

My take:

He has two years on this deal, and despite having talent, room to grow, and skating ability would still register as a medium-high risk trade for the acquiring team because of his one-dimensional game and inconsistency. I wouldn’t trade him this year, and I doubt Kenny will either.

I think it’s telling that Holland seemingly placated AA with this deal. $3.3M/year for two years tells me the first year is “here’s your money, show you’re worth double” and year two is send him packing.

My guess is Kenny already tried to move AA this summer or at the draft, and didn’t like what he was getting back in return, so he’s playing a long game on AA. He will get another year to develop and show more (hopefully) consistency and tenacity, maybe a bit of defense and better playmaking, and Kenny will circle back at the next draft or next deadline to cash him in.

I’m 100% behind this plan, as I feel it would only help us to have AA do more of his development here and raise his value for the team looking to acquire him next year. Selling low this season would likely only result in us watching the acquiring team getting 1rd/Top4 value out of a trade they paid much less for. The ONLY way AA gets traded this year is if he absolutely tears it up while the team craters again, and Kenny can get a first or more for him.

Posted by Colin from Ken Holland's new yacht, "Incompetence" on 07/10/18 at 12:03 PM ET

Primis's avatar

Why rush to trade AA?

Posted by Lefty30 on 07/10/18 at 10:36 AM ET

Because his game seems to have possibly already peaked, and his peak isn’t that great really and is probably easily replaced from within by another young player?  So you try to strike while he’s still got some real value and see if someone will overpay?  Because can I tell you, if he doesn’t top 20 goals this season, you’re going to find other teams taking a hard pass on giving up much of anything for him.

He basically has one more Prove It year, either to stay in DET or make another team covet him.  Because while his speed is nice, his other elements are lacking enough that teams just aren’t going to want to deal with it.

Why aren’t we talking about creatively getting rid of the real problems on the roster like Abby,Helm, and Luke?

Posted by SevensForTed on 07/10/18 at 11:33 AM ET

Because nobody wants them and they have no value?  The convo kinda’ ends there.

Posted by Primis on 07/10/18 at 12:31 PM ET

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Numbers still put AA as one our better players and near the top as a goal scorer considering TOI. Last year.
Larkin 16g. 47a. 63pts. 1627 TOI
          1g per. 101.7 TOI
          1a. per.  34.6
          1pt. per   25.8
AA.      16g 17a. 33pts. 1087 TOI
            1g       67.9
            1a.      63.5
            1pt.      32.9
Nyquist. 21g. 19a. 40pts. 1464 TOI
            1g.      69.7
            1a.        77.0
            1pt.      36.6
True Larkin is used more defensively but I argue AA is used less frequently on set lines. AA would be on my team.

Posted by stateofmifan on 07/10/18 at 01:07 PM ET

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I think the possible logjam at forward is both another reason to hold off
on trading AA until we can actually see if he’s peaked - and probably
also a problem in evaluating his top-end until the logjam clears.

But I wouldn’t move him before Nyquist for sure.

Lots of reasonable arguments here pro and con.

I guess I still some fairly unique value and upside in him .
and would bet on moving him in a year or two if the right
deal materializes

Posted by Lefty30 on 07/10/18 at 04:42 PM ET

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As bad as our defense is KH keeps picking up forwards. Our defense is clearly a liability, slow and undersized. These tall players on other teams have the ability to disrupt passes especially on PPs. Our players constantly lose possession along the boards, not sure if it’s finesse, muscle, combinations there of, although seems mostly we’re plainly muscled off the puck.

Posted by stateofmifan on 07/10/18 at 05:49 PM ET

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Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog since 1977.  No other site on the internet has better-researched, fact-laden and better prepared discussions than A2Y.  Re-phrase: we do little research, find facts and stats highly overrated and claim little to no preparation.  There are 19 readers of A2Y. No more, no less. All of them, except maybe one, are juvenile in nature.  Reminding them of that in the comment section will only encourage them to prove that. Your suggestions and critiques are welcome: wphoulihan@gmail.com