Kukla's Korner

Abel to Yzerman

Tick…Tock?  Holland’s Missing The Boat.  Again.

It's not even close.  Ray Shero is so far in front of Ken Holland (and everyone else) that the discussion isn't even worth having.  Here's what he does: he evaluates his team and determines whether they're Cup contenders, or not.

Ken Holland does the same. Even ground.

Shero, and Holland, annually determine that their teams have realistic title hopes.

Here's where the roads diverge.  Holland "kicks tires"...yes, I'm sure that means "every tire". Got it. 

And while Kenny's kicking?  Shero's dealing.  Think the Wings could have used Brenden Morrow?  A little toughness with scoring touch, a veteran with fire up front?  No? I'm sure you're right. Pittsburgh gave up a great prospect in Joe Morrow, plus more picks.  A steep price. 

They're closer to the Cup than we are, you're saying.  Got that too. 

But were they last year, or the year before?  Because Kenny's done a lot of kicking and come away with some sore toes and nothing else. 

Ray Shero landed Doug Murray today.  Another great move.  Big, tough d-man.  Kenny got us Kyle Quincey last year.  A huge move, comparatively speaking.  And then he went out and brought us Carlo, who's played one game.

Since 2008, Ray Shero has not slept. Not a day.  Marian Hossa, Bill Guerin, Steve Sullivan, James Neal, Kovalev, Adams, Kunitz, Vokoun, Gill, Dupuis, Satan.  There's more.

Since 2008, Kenny Holland has signed Marian Hossa.  'Member that?  Great signing.  Good thing Hossa's agent called first.  We might still be kicking that tire.  Since then?

Not much.  Lost a lot of talent and lost a lot of ground.  Nick Lidstrom retires (suddenly, I'm sure) and what's been done?  What effort has been made to compensate (not replace, just compensate)?  Quincey, Carlo? Really?

Shero is in a constant improvement mode, consistently adding pieces because he feels his team is that close to winning.  Big names are out there and Shero lands them.  Every year.  You think he's done? Think again. They've got prorated cap space to burn, just like we do. 

Holland may feel this isn't the year to deal, that this team doesn't have a shot with or without Iginla, Boyle, Campbell, Yandle or whoever.  So he'll sit tight. He sat tight last year, and the year before that.  Helm will be his big deadline move and then get hurt again immediately after, if he's back at all this year.  Either way, Tick Tock "likes his team", boy.

You know who else likes his team? Ray Shero likes his team. A lot.  Every year. That bastard's working it. Dialing and dealing.  Kenny's kicking tires and waiting for the summer. 

Because that worked so well last year, right?

Filed in: | Abel to Yzerman | Permalink
 

Comments

 1 2 >       Next »

Avatar

For what Shero paid, gladly pass. Murray’s been declining the last few years, and has only played 16 minutes a night this year for San Jose. He’s a 3rd pairing guy who will be asked to do more in Pittsburgh and will probably struggle.

Posted by jpellek on 03/25/13 at 02:08 PM ET

ChowYunCat's avatar

How much of that success can be attributed to those traded players’ willingness to play alongside Crosby and Malkin for years? 40 and 13 have a limited shelf life at this point. No one wants to livein Detroit, either.

Posted by ChowYunCat on 03/25/13 at 02:16 PM ET

monkey's avatar

Larry Murphy got fired whore style. Never forget.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 03/25/13 at 02:16 PM ET

Vladimir16's avatar

Holland’s annoyed the hell out of me since his last good move (trading to get Stuart) but the Wings have got as much chance of winning the cup this yr as I’ve got scoring on the hot little bartender at the pub I go to. ZERO! He needs to do three things: Trade White and Flip for picks and sign DeKeyser.

Posted by Vladimir16 from Grand River Valley on 03/25/13 at 02:17 PM ET

Guilherme's avatar

So the Red Wings won’t improve the team because we’re not contenders this season.

The Red Wings are not contenders because the team hasn’t improved for quite some time, dammit.

Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 03/25/13 at 02:23 PM ET

redxblack's avatar

The wings have some extremely talented players still in GR finally getting a chance to show something. Holland has some black aces he’s not using (or has underdeveloped by letting them age in the AHL).

Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 03/25/13 at 02:27 PM ET

Avatar

Holland’s annoyed the hell out of me since his last good move (trading to get Stuart) but the Wings have got as much chance of winning the cup this yr as I’ve got scoring on the hot little bartender at the pub I go to.

So…the only reason to make a trade is to try to win the Cup right now?  How about improving the team in the long run?  Making a trade now, seeing how a guy fits with the team and then re-signing him?  If a guy gets a chance to play with Z or Datsyuk for a few weeks (or Kronwall/Ericsson/Smith) and they develop chemistry, he’s more likely to be in a Red Wings uniform next season than if the Wings have to stand in line to throw numbers at him in July.

I don’t know if Detroit was interested in Murray at all, but using him as an example, unless he’s a complete bust in Pittsburgh you have to think that they have the best chance of signing him to a new deal.

With Getzlaf and Perry being signed, guys who Detroit would be interested in, maybe it’s time to pick a forward you like and make a hard charge for him.

Posted by Garth on 03/25/13 at 02:33 PM ET

EpeeBill's avatar

I’d just point out for all of Shero’s wheeling and dealing last year, the Pens got drummed out of the playoffs in the first round last year, like the little punks they are.

I wonder if Tick Tock could pick up Meyers from Buffalo?

Posted by EpeeBill on 03/25/13 at 02:42 PM ET

Avatar

For all Shero’s aggressiveness, they’ve won exactly one playoff round since 2009. I wouldn’t exactly say he’s been making the best moves in the world either.

Posted by jpellek on 03/25/13 at 02:46 PM ET

Vladimir16's avatar

Posted by Garth on 03/25/13 at 03:33 PM ET

I’m with ya but Holland has been treading water so long that I think if he pulls the trigger on somebody it’s gonna be a mess (think the scene in Unforgiven when they realize they’re not young guns anymore).
This is what Holland will do:
1. Will re-sign Flip at 4.5 mil+ OR lose him to free agency for nothing. Both sucking
2. Miss out on DeKeyeser
3. Keep Samuelsson and Carlowhateverhisnameis
4. Will not sign a sniper (Semin) or a power forward
5. He will like his team
The point is he’s been so lame the last few yrs that all I want is for him to not overpay and trade Flips ass and pursue like hell DeKeyser and that little bit will make me happy.

Posted by Vladimir16 from Grand River Valley on 03/25/13 at 02:46 PM ET

Jeff  OKWingnut's avatar

There’s been a whole lotta tire kicking going on lately - - and no ass-kicking.

That has to change.

If Tick-Tock doesn’t land a gift-wrapped DeKeyeser, then he needs to be friggin fired - end of story.

Posted by Jeff OKWingnut from Quest for 12 on 03/25/13 at 02:56 PM ET

MoreShoot's avatar

I don’t like defending Holland, but Pittsburgh is in a much better position to deal.

With Getzlaf and Perry being signed, guys who Detroit would be interested in, maybe it’s time to pick a forward you like and make a hard charge for him.

Because it’s more expensive to do that now than later?  You will have to find someone in the playoff hunt, probably in the EC, and swap a current player plus prospects for another current player. And it won’t be a defenseman the caliber we want.  No way.  Right.  Or, you are looking to work with folks essentially out of it: Colorado (Stastny?), Buffalo (Stafford? Vanek?), Philly (Simmons?).

 

Posted by MoreShoot on 03/25/13 at 02:57 PM ET

Avatar

Because it’s more expensive to do that now than later?

How about a little foresight?  Being a little proactive rather than reactive?

Is it better to pay more now and make your team better or to miss out later and have to settle for Carle *#$%@& Colaiacovo?

You will have to find…

Yeah, God forbid someone take an active role in improving his team, right?

Everyone says “nobody’s wants to make a trade right now” and “nobody is trying to help us get better”, yet Ray shero found two different teams to make trades with.  And I bet neither of those teams went into the negotiations with the intention of helping the Pens.

Posted by Garth on 03/25/13 at 03:13 PM ET

Avatar

Posted by Vladimir16 on 03/25/13 at 03:46 PM ET

Don’t forget that he’s going to re-sign Cleary and waive Tatar or Nyquist.

Posted by Garth on 03/25/13 at 03:14 PM ET

statelouis26's avatar

Holland has shit the bed the last couple years and hasn’t cleaned anything up yet.  That said, making a trade just for the sake of it won’t do.  Murray might be a decent piece for pitsville but Wings are not in the same position, that being a legit cup contender.  The 2rds or 2rds that could turn into a 3rd is a little steep for Murray in decline.

Posted by statelouis26 from Detroit, MI on 03/25/13 at 03:16 PM ET

Avatar

That said, making a trade just for the sake of it won’t do.

Can you read?

Where did anyone say that they want a trade just for the sake of it?

Posted by Garth on 03/25/13 at 03:26 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

The 2rds or 2rds that could turn into a 3rd is a little steep for Murray in decline.
   
Posted by Statelouis26 from Detroit, MI on 03/25/13 at 04:16 PM ET

Helluva lot better than a 1st for Quincey.

Its a moot point, however, because the Wings would have had to pay a premium for either of those guys because they are in the West too.

Posted by Hootinani on 03/25/13 at 03:31 PM ET

TKShreve's avatar

I say we beat the pants off Phoenix 2nite and fly to San Jose with Yandle in tow.

That guy would work out well. Without a doubt.

Posted by TKShreve from East Uptown on 03/25/13 at 03:31 PM ET

MoreShoot's avatar

Everyone says “nobody’s wants to make a trade right now” and “nobody is trying to help us get better”, yet Ray shero found two different teams to make trades with.  And I bet neither of those teams went into the negotiations with the intention of helping the Pens.


I"m not convinced Murray is a great asset.  But to your point, sure, trades are probably available.  I failed to emphasize that Pittsburgh’s needs are easier to fill.  I’m not sure we need a ball buster stay at home D-man as much as we need someone who can move the puck, eat minutes, and put more life into the PP.  At this time of year, that person is more likely to come out of the EC more cheaply.  Who is it and what does he cost?  Is it Lubomir?  He’s not really a building block, but he could make us better.  How much.

 

Posted by MoreShoot on 03/25/13 at 03:33 PM ET

MoreShoot's avatar

Would you give up Nyquist, Kindl and a pick for Yandle?  Would Phoenix pull the trigger on that?  This is assuming you have DeKeyser on board.

Posted by MoreShoot on 03/25/13 at 03:38 PM ET

Hank1974's avatar

I doubt we’ll see any inter-conference deals - especially with rivals.
Saying that, IwoCPO is right that Holland needs to take a gamble now and then.
We need a top-6 forward and top-4 dman.

Pittsburgh made themselves better without removing anyone from their current roster.
I don’t care how great a prospect is supposed to be. How many ‘top prospects’ have flammed out without doing anything at the NHL level?

Anytime you can get proven NHL talent, do it.
Someone here mentioned how Dats and Zetts aren’t getting any younger.
Those guys have 1 to 3 more prime years.
Get it done by then. If not, start selling and build for the future.

Posted by Hank1974 on 03/25/13 at 03:39 PM ET

TKShreve's avatar

That’s a little steep imo. What about Kindl, Abdelkader and negotiating rights to Murph?

But really, we shouldn’t ditch our game ready prospects, but maybe someone a little further down the “ripening” ladder.

Posted by TKShreve from East Uptown on 03/25/13 at 03:41 PM ET

monkey's avatar

Would you give up Nyquist, Kindl and a pick for Yandle?  Would Phoenix pull the trigger on that?  This is assuming you have DeKeyser on board.

No. Yes.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 03/25/13 at 03:42 PM ET

Mandingo's avatar

Doug Murray and Brendan Morrow for a top-tier defense prospect and 2 second round picks? No thanks.

I mean, it’s an understandable trade for sure for a great team with a legitimate shot at the Stanley Cup like Pittsburgh. But add those two to the Wings roster and they’re still a borderline playoff team whose most positive upside imaginable is a first-round victory IF they somehow fall ass-backward into the 4th seed, only to be curb-stomped in the second-round by any of the several teams in the Western Conference who are substantially better than they are. And they’d be out, comparatively, say…Sproul or Ouelette and 2 2nd rounders. No f*cking way. No reason.

 

Posted by Mandingo from The Garage on 03/25/13 at 03:45 PM ET

MoreShoot's avatar

But really, we shouldn’t ditch our game ready prospects, but maybe someone a little further down the “ripening” ladder.

Ok, Kindl, Frk and a pick for Yandle.

Posted by MoreShoot on 03/25/13 at 03:47 PM ET

Avatar

Posted by MoreShoot on 03/25/13 at 04:33 PM ET

I’m not specifically saying that Detroit should’ve gotten Murray or Morrow, my point was just that Shero identifies his needs and addresses them.  He’s proactive.  I’m betting he didn’t wait for Doug Wilson to call him up and ask what he would give for Murray, and I’m sure it wasn’t Nieuwendyk who initiated talks with Shero.

Kicking tires is all well and good, but when you need wheels in order to get to work eventually you have to actually buy a car.  And guess what?  The dealer’s not just going to give you the car, he’s going to ask for something in return.

Posted by Garth on 03/25/13 at 03:50 PM ET

monkey's avatar

If all we needed was a Doug Murray and a Brendan Morrow I don’t doubt we would get them.

There is a whole lot of bitching just for bitching’s sake going on here.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 03/25/13 at 04:00 PM ET

monkey's avatar

We are in rebuilding mode. Fortunately, it doesn’t look like Ken Holland believes in building by removing.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 03/25/13 at 04:03 PM ET

perfection's avatar

Posted by Mandingo from The Garage on 03/25/13 at 04:45 PM ET

this is truth.

absurd that anyone would be jealous of the Penguins move. they would barely help our team right now.

also, willfully ignoring how crappy the Penguins had to be to be able to build this team. THAT had nothing to do with Shero. If you prefer the Wings don’t tank for a handful of years, you need to be patient and let Kenny rebuild on the fly… not easy believe it or not

Posted by perfection from LaLaLand on 03/25/13 at 04:26 PM ET

Tony's avatar

Excellent post Master Chief, as usual…..

Posted by Tony from Virginia Beach, VA on 03/25/13 at 04:26 PM ET

MsRedWinger's avatar

Um… LET’S GO RED WINGS !!!!!

Posted by MsRedWinger from Flori-duh on 03/25/13 at 05:09 PM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

I have to say, neither of those trades would’ve made sense for Detroit.

I understand what Garth’s saying about identifying deficiencies and actively seeking solutions vs. kicking tires and waiting for the perfect deal to fall in your lap.  That’s like passing and passing and passing on the power play but you never take a shot.  Well you’re never gonna score a goal if you don’t shoot.

But I don’t want Morrow and Murray was too steep, given what we’ve been able to snag in the draft in the second round (you don’t need to tank to get good players).

I’d say though that it’s worth seeing what it’d take to get Boyle from SJ.  They owe us as well after Stuey and trading his rights for a bag of pucks.  Even if all it did was expedite the process.  We need a PP QB and R handed D who are top 2 material.  Boyle has a lot of experience too and on a very green, though capable, D corp, that could only help.

Believe it or not, fans who are tired of Hollands inactivity aren’t mad because we don’t have anything to talk about, it’s because we see things wrong with the team and YEAR after YEAR we don’t add meaningful pieces.  Just plugs. 

Let’s see Holland make a push for something they need and get it done.

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 03/25/13 at 05:10 PM ET

Avatar

If you prefer the Wings don’t tank for a handful of years, you need to be patient and let Kenny rebuild on the fly… not easy believe it or not

Good point, since everyone has implied that it’s easy.

Did you go the HockeyinHD School of Stram Men?

How’s the tuition?

Do you end up getting a diploma in a subject other than the one you were studying?

Posted by Garth on 03/25/13 at 05:12 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

Perhaps the bottom line here is the playoff record of the pens since their one and done.  1 first round win, 3 series losses.  You go, girl.

Posted by RWBill from cruising Brush Street with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 03/25/13 at 05:19 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

There is a whole lot of bitching just for bitching’s sake going on here.

Posted by monkey from Fear and Loathing on 03/25/13 at 05:00 PM ET

Indeed.

What’s happiness?  One moment before you want more happiness.

Posted by RWBill from cruising Brush Street with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 03/25/13 at 05:21 PM ET

Avatar

Posted by RWBill from the open bar on The Hasek. on 03/25/13 at 06:19 PM ET

As opposed to Detroit’s towering succeses, right?

Hmm, now that you mention it, I think that maybe….just maybe the Pens’ recent lack of playoff success is the reason behind his attempts to better his team.  It’s just such a crazy hypothesis that it might actually be true!

Imagine that, a GM not happy with his recent lack of success.

Posted by Garth on 03/25/13 at 05:24 PM ET

CaptainDennisPolonich's avatar

Like Master Chief wrote, Lids retiring was no surprise. You know what else was not a surprise? Stuart wanting to be near his kids. Perhaps Rafalski retiring, may have caught KH off guard, but Rafi was a stand up guy, so I’d be surprised if he hadn’t let KH in on his plans in advance. Not to mention he was 37 and had 15 seasons of NHL hockey under his skates, so no need to worry he might retire, eh Kenny? So Kenny justly deserves to be raked over the coals for not shoring up the D over the last couple of seasons, especially with the cash he had to spend after last season.

But at this moment, I’m glad Kenny is sitting on his ass. Who knows what this team is going to do next? They are like the weather back in the homeland, “just wait 15 minutes…” This past weekend they tore apart the second best team in the league. A week ago they were coming off losing three in a row to the BJ’s and Flameouts. This team could end up a 4th seed or out of the playoffs in 15th. Who the fuch knows?

Trade deadline deals are great if you are one or two players away from legitimately contending for the Cup. Deadline deals are about mortgaging the future to win in the present. Does anyone here believe this team is a player ot two away from the Cup? Bueller?

So why mortgage the future for a team that plays like Michigan weather? Play out the season. if we make the playoffs, then great, the stupid streak is intact and we go home again in the first or second round with yet another year of lousy draft position. If we miss the playoffs, then great, the stupid streak was great while it lasted but we get to root for that Winged Wheel ping pong ball to pop up first.

No one is going to give a top 4 D-man with a great breakout pass to the Wings at the deadline, not at a reasonable price anyway. So go ahead Kenny, sit on your ass. Take a spring break vacation with your kids. Any trade deadline deal this year just does more harm than good in the long run.

BTW, it ain’t just Kenny. What the hell is the rest of the brain trust doing? Did Devellano move over to Commerica Park permanently to be Tigers VP? What exactly does Jim Nill do? When’s the last time Hakan Andersson discovered some late round gem? HTO wrote here recently that the Brain Trust has just been the Trust after Scotty left. And I am beginning to agree with him.

Posted by CaptainDennisPolonich from The Land of Fake Boobs and Real Nuts on 03/25/13 at 05:27 PM ET

shanetx's avatar

I don’t think Håkan Andersson is the guy to criticize when every exciting prospect we have is European (nyquist, Andersson, almquist and Järnkrok coming out of his back hard no less). 

Something to consider:  Western conference teams are reluctant to deal.  They have to face the wings in a potential playoff race, and they’re smarting from being on the receiving end of two decades of dominance.  Eastern conference teams know the Wings are coming next year and while they undoubtably do not fear them, they also don’t want to give them pieces that make their future conference opponent better long-term, either.

Posted by shanetx from Floydada, Texas on 03/25/13 at 05:59 PM ET

Avatar

Something to consider:  Western conference teams are reluctant to deal.  They have to face the wings in a potential playoff race, and they’re smarting from being on the receiving end of two decades of dominance.  Eastern conference teams know the Wings are coming next year and while they undoubtably do not fear them, they also don’t want to give them pieces that make their future conference opponent better long-term, either.

Excuses, excuses.

Posted by Garth on 03/25/13 at 06:04 PM ET

HockeytownOverhaul's avatar

I wouldn’t consider just getting an NHL player a gem.

And didn’t Hakkan take on some GM role or something in the SEL or something?  Scouting the Wings isn’t necessarily at the forefront of his career path right now.

At the same time, Red Wings don’t have that uncharted territory anymore, everyone knows about Euro players, worlds more connected.  What the Wings need to rely on now is having better ability to gauge potential in raw prospects and having a game-plan as far as what they’re drafting instead of just, best available player.  I could see going that route if you plan on using them as bargaining chips to get what you need, but if that best player doesn’t necessarily have a skill set that you’re lacking, why not take the best available player with the attributes we’re projecting to need on the team?>

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 03/25/13 at 06:10 PM ET

 1 2 >       Next »

Add a Comment

Please limit embedded image or media size to 575 pixels wide.

Add your own avatar by joining Kukla's Korner, or logging in and uploading one in your member control panel.

Captchas bug you? Join KK or log in and you won't have to bother.

Smileys

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Feed

Most Recent Blog Posts

About Abel to Yzerman

Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog since 1977.  No other site on the internet has better-researched, fact-laden and better prepared discussions than A2Y.  Re-phrase: we do little research, find facts and stats highly overrated and claim little to no preparation.  There are 19 readers of A2Y. No more, no less. All of them, except maybe one, are juvenile in nature.  Reminding them of that in the comment section will only encourage them to prove that. Your suggestions and critiques are welcome: wphoulihan@gmail.com