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Abel to Yzerman

Ken Holland On Deadline Trades

from Ted Kulfan of the Detroit News,

“I don’t envision us trading away players who could be part of our future,” general manager Ken Holland said. “Those are the players other teams will be asking about.”

“I don’t know if there are many players on the market who we feel are better than (young players the Red Wings currently have),” Holland said.

“I see us going into 2014-15 as a young team,” Holland said. “Given what these young players have shown here, what they’ve accomplished in the AHL (winning Calder Cup), and players we have down there, it’s working that way.”

more on the Wings...

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Comments

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So none of the guys available at the deadline are better than the kids that Holland himself says aren’t the solution?

Why not just say “We’re actually targeting finishes in the 6-8 seed area for the duration of Datsyuk’s career.”

Posted by captaineclectic on 02/05/14 at 10:43 AM ET

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A bunch of fans are going to rip this strategy and stupidly snark “I like our team”.

Don’t listen to those people.

An absolutely correct strategy is to not make any high-cost trades at the deadline that involve prospects or picks to try and save a single season at the cost of 5-10 years of a player.  Detroit’s at the point now where if they get healthy they’ve got an outside shot at the #4 seed, if they get a little healthier they’ll be 6-8, and if they stay hurt they’ll go 8-10.

None of those situations clamor for a high-profile rental move, and as Detroit’s core ages (D and Z and Franzen) or leaves (Bert and Cleary and Alfredsson) or may be mediocre to poor down the road (Weiss or Howard or Kindl or Smith) they are going to need a lot of that youth available to step into many roles so that the team has the money to fill the spots they can’t reliably fill internally (lead dman, top line scoring wing).

Patience and perspective.  Holland has them, that’s why he’s one of the top 2 or 3 GMs in the NHL.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 02/05/14 at 10:46 AM ET

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So none of the guys available at the deadline are better than the kids that Holland himself says aren’t the solution?

Why not just say “We’re actually targeting finishes in the 6-8 seed area for the duration of Datsyuk’s career.”

Posted by captaineclectic on 02/05/14 at 09:43 AM ET

When did Holland say griffins kids were not the solution? Maybe at the beginning of the season, before they realized how good some of these guys were.
The team is rebuilding or re-tooling, whatever you want to call it, so the kids ARE the solution.
No one wants our vets, like Crealy, Bert, Sammy and so on. We don’t really want them at this point based on the fact that they are healthy scratches or sent to minors.
Unless someone offers Holland a deal he can’t refuse, trading the youngsters doesn’t make any sense.

Posted by George0211 on 02/05/14 at 10:50 AM ET

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Detroit’s at the point now where if they get healthy they’ve got an outside shot at the #4 seed

#4 seed?  They ARE a #4 seed right now.

Posted by Garth on 02/05/14 at 11:00 AM ET

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It depends, of course, on which “youngsters” we’re talking about.  There’s a 23-man roster limit.  Setting Nyquist and Tatar aside, the Red Wings simply cannot bring along all of

Sheahan
Glendening
Jurco
Mantha
Jarnkrok
Ferraro
Frk
Jarnmark
Ouellet
Sproul
Backman
Marchenko
Almqvist
Mrazek

in the next couple years.  That means losing some of those guys for free by letting them walk.  I’m not advocating giving up 5-10 years of a player for a rental or overpriced veteran, but I certainly am advocating converting some of our surplus of soon-to-be-NHLers aged 19-to-22 into present-day talent. 

Alternately we could convert some of our lower-end NHLers into talent, trusting the above-mentioned names to fill the void.  Gustavsson, Andersson, Abdelkader, Kindl, Smith, and even Lashoff probably have some trade value today, and as far as I can see they’re all pretty replaceable with the guys I just mentioned.  Maybe Holland intended to leave the door open to that sort of trade.

Posted by captaineclectic on 02/05/14 at 11:05 AM ET

LivinLaVidaLockout's avatar

Why not just say “We’re actually targeting finishes in the 6-8 seed area for the duration of Datsyuk’s career.”
   
    Posted by
     
    captaineclectic
     
      on 02/05/14 at 09:43 AM ET

A bunch of fans are going to rip this strategy and stupidly snark “I like our team”.

Ok, why not just say “I like our team?”

“I don’t know if there are many players on the market who we feel are better than (young players the Red Wings currently have),” Holland said.

Hasn’t it always been that at the trade deadline you’re looking for a specialist?  Whether that’s a tough guy, a great faceoff man, a scorer, it’s usually some sort of veteran you’re looking to get for a playoff run.  If you’re a potential playoff team, you’re probably not trying to get a high-ceiling young player at this deadline, so essentially, he is saying “based on our current near-bottom seed position, the fact that getting back healthy players after the Olympic deadline will be like making a huge trade, and that our young players have played so well of late, I like our team.”

The meme continues.

Posted by LivinLaVidaLockout on 02/05/14 at 11:09 AM ET

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can’t reliably fill internally (lead dman, top line scoring wing).

Don’t have them, and not willing to trade assets to get those type of players.  Makes sense.

Has no faith in the prospects his colleagues developed (“This is a man’s league!”) and loves his veterans so much that everyone gets a NTC.  Makes sense. 

He’ll go kick the tires and then tell us, “Weiss is our trade-deadline acquisition.”  That is, after refusing to waive Bert or Cleary and sending Eaves packing again.  Makes sense.

I’m not one for selling the farm, when some are on the verge.  But there’s so much down there and up here that moving one or two wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for the right fit. 

Unfortunately, it’s his past moves that have hampered this franchise from making upgrades at the key positions you correctly identified, and he’s too scared to try something big now because he might move the wrong piece.

Posted by jkm2011 on 02/05/14 at 11:12 AM ET

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Posted by captaineclectic on 02/05/14 at 10:05 AM ET

GMs will be asking about guys like Sheahan, Jurco, Tatar, Nyquist and so on. Not everyone on the list you made. And in reality who is better than Tatar or Nyquist that is available at a reasonable price.

Posted by George0211 on 02/05/14 at 11:13 AM ET

Nathan's avatar

Posted by HockeyinHD on 02/05/14 at 09:46 AM ET
Posted by captaineclectic on 02/05/14 at 10:05 AM ET

I think you guys both have it right.

There’s no good reason to trade one of these young guys or first/second round picks for veterans. But there’s a lot of reason to try to trade a couple of these players sometime in the next year or two, especially if they can turn the depth at the skilled forward position into a legitimate top defense player/prospect.

The hard part is navigating when the right time to sell is, and who the right player to sell is. You want to sell high where you can, but because the development strategy the Wings have generally been forced into due to the successes of 1995 - 2009, there isn’t usually a clear move on what would’ve been best to do with a guy unless it’s too early, or until it’s too late.

The other big problem here is that the type of player the Wings need is hard to come by on the trade or UFA market. Top D are the hardest commodity to come across. That’s not to say there aren’t other possibilities.

For example, and I’m not advocating this, but it’s topical at least… the Isles want a first, a player, and a prospect for Vanek. So is there a possibility out there where you still improve the team by getting a player that is a veteran, but still on the right side of 30? Do you consider something like this because you can get a player with size that you just otherwise don’t have? Of course, the price is probably too steep in multiple ways, so again, I’m not advocating it. But it is a sort of example of what could be out there in the coming year.

Posted by Nathan from the scoresheet! on 02/05/14 at 11:19 AM ET

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I understand what GMs will “ask” for, but there’s such a thing as negotiation.  I’m sure every GM always asks for the other team’s top under-25 players and top prospects.  I’m sure Calgary asked for the sun, the moon, and all the stars when it traded Iginla—it got crap for him.  We’re a participant in a market, like any other team—we don’t have to give away our best players, we just need to make the best offer.

Having said that, I am actually pretty happy with Detroit’s forward group on paper.  I would pursue a puck-moving defenseman to help drive play and who can play in our top four—sort of the kind of move we made in landing Stuart to stabilize Kronwall’s play, only with a more offensive twist.  If I were Holland I would be kicking the tires on

Gonchar
Zidlicky
Vishnovsky
Girardi
Morris
Edler

These guys all have warts, which is why they’re potentially gettable.  They’d all improve our chances of finishing in seeds 3 through 5 and advancing past the second round.  We wouldn’t have to give up Nyquist or Tatar to land one of these names—maybe Girardi or Edler, but not the others, and even there there could easily be flexibility depending on the rest of the market.

Posted by captaineclectic on 02/05/14 at 11:23 AM ET

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we don’t have to give away our best players, we just need to make the best offer.

How do you know he doesn’t make those offers? He simply said he doesn’t want to part with some of our young players. This doesn’t mean he sits with a thumb up his ass all day and does nothing.
I’m sure he is probing the market, but again, who is available that will improve the team without costing an arm and a leg.
Another thing to keep in mind, is that if you want to get a proven vet even if he does cost a reasonable price, Red Wings are right up against the cap so salary in means salary out, and picks/prospects/youngster don’t free up enough salary.
I understand Holland got himself into the salary cap problem, but that is the reality.

Posted by George0211 on 02/05/14 at 11:27 AM ET

SnLO's avatar

This is not a team that is a player or two away from being favorites for winning the cup. At this point in the team development, if anything, Holland should only be looking to trade away the dead weight or jump on an opportunity too good to pass up. Patience is the best course of action.

Posted by SnLO from beyond the M-1 on 02/05/14 at 11:34 AM ET

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Obviously I don’t “know” any such thing.  I just see Holland’s continued statements that he’s reluctant to trade young players who “could” be part of our future and I see Holland’s modest trade record, and from the two—which are consistent with one another—I conclude that his approach is very conservative.  I don’t think it’s a time for conservatism, given the large supply of prospects we’ve got.

Posted by captaineclectic on 02/05/14 at 11:39 AM ET

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SnLO, I don’t understand this critique.

First of all, when Detroit IS a player or two away from being a favorite we’ve often been told that “we like our team” and so no move is necessary.  If no move is necessary when the team is good—because it’s got a puncher’s chance—and no move is necessary when the team is bad—because why bother?—then you’ve rigged the game to never make a trade.

Moreover, there’s no rule that says a trade can only be for the last piece to a puzzle.  St. Louis traded for Bouwmeester last year and failed to win the Cup.  But here they are again a year later, with Bouwmeester under contract, playing very well.  It isn’t clear to me that that way a bad trade, and it’ll look awfully smart if St. Louis, which is a favorite this year, eventually wins a Cup with Bouwmeester on the team.

Posted by captaineclectic on 02/05/14 at 11:47 AM ET

redxblack's avatar

Holland is a sentimentalist who won’t make moves he does not have to make. As long as he’s not feeling heat for the decline of the team (let’s be honest - they haven’t been “Elite” since 08/09), this is what we’ll get from him.

Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 02/05/14 at 12:20 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

As good as the young’uns have proven to be, here and in the AHL, they need a strong veteran presence to show them how its done and help them through the transition to the big league.

If they can ever have a healthy season, they have that presence on the forward lines, but they absolutely need to trade for a solid veteran dman to fill their current needs, and to help bring along all of that young d talent they have in waiting.  Its only speculation, but I’ve gotta believe that Smith would have been a lot farther ahead in his development if he had played with Lidstrom, or even Stuart, for a year or more.

Posted by Hootinani on 02/05/14 at 12:45 PM ET

Alan's avatar

For the most part, I like our team. That’s not Holland snark, that’s how I feel.

Holland’s statements come as no surprise, though. What is he supposed to say? “We’re targeting Vanek/Ott/etc to replace a couple of our kids?”

Some of this is GM doublespeak. I’m sure you guys realize this. The other part of that? The cap. We’re right up at it, and still have some very tough decisions to make moving forward.

Posted by Alan from Atlanta on 02/05/14 at 01:48 PM ET

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Garth,
Are you that interested in fighting anything HiHD says that you’re trying to be ignorant? Wings are an 8th seed. They’re 4th in their division maybe. This is not a 4th seed.

Posted by teldar on 02/05/14 at 02:20 PM ET

topshelf14's avatar

We currently sit in the last wild card spot Gerth.

Posted by topshelf14 from Detroit, MI on 02/05/14 at 02:30 PM ET

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Hoot,
The only problem with Smith is that he’s been making the same mistakes for years and this year he blamed his teammates for not covering for him when he went off on his own in a play. I really think he’s just an incredibly skilled terribly slow learner and would probably make a better forward. There are other defensemen who have made great forwards. There’s one in wpg. There’s also one in San Jose.

Posted by teldar on 02/05/14 at 02:34 PM ET

Hootinani's avatar

Posted by teldar on 02/05/14 at 01:34 PM ET

There is no doubt that his massive ego has made him a total headcase.  Ive given up on him becoming anything useful, but there is a ton of d potential in the A that could benefit from a solid vet to play with when they make the jump.  Kronwall can only do so much.

Posted by Hootinani on 02/05/14 at 02:41 PM ET

SK77's avatar

As frustrating as Smith is, I don’t think you can cut the cord on a defenseman that has shown flashes of great potential when they’re only turning 25 in a few days and can next year handle #4 duty.

With Quincey, Kindl, and Lashoff, you’ve got 3 defensemen who have already provided a pretty good indication of what their best case scenario is ... and it’s not in the top 4 if can be helped.

Ouellet, Marchenko, Sproul, and Almquist, are all going to get shots at the NHL level in the next season or two – and fingers crossed 3 of those pan out to be top 4 – but unless one of them pulls a DeKeyser none of them will be slotting into the top 4 immediately.

Bringing it full circle to ... the Wings seem stuck with Smith and here’s to hoping he connects the dots the way Ericsson was finally able to.

Posted by SK77 on 02/05/14 at 02:55 PM ET

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can next year handle #4 duty.

I’m not sure what that’s based on.  I haven’t seen him show anything that makes me think he’s earned that spot.

Right now he’s still wildly inconsistent, and if Detroit is going to keep him I don’t think the right tactic is to promote him before he proves to be deserving of it.

Posted by Garth on 02/05/14 at 03:29 PM ET

SK77's avatar

I’m not sure what that’s based on.  I haven’t seen him show anything that makes me think he’s earned that spot.

Right now he’s still wildly inconsistent, and if Detroit is going to keep him I don’t think the right tactic is to promote him before he proves to be deserving of it.

Posted by Garth on 02/05/14 at 02:29 PM ET

Honestly? It’s probably based too much on hope.

I look at Ericsson who showed good potential early in his career, then went through horrific growing pains and was wildly inconsistent as a #4-6 defenseman, before maturing into a steady #2/3 defenseman.

Right now I look at Smith and hope that what we’re seeing is that same period of wild inconsistency before be stabilizes into a legit #3/4 defenseman. He has shown that he possesses a lot of the necessary tools to play in that position and what he needs to work on is consistently using them.

Will he? Chances are probably stacked against him, but I’m pulling for him as it’d make the team a lot better.

Posted by SK77 on 02/05/14 at 04:04 PM ET

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Don’t have them, and not willing to trade assets to get those type of players.

There’s ‘get’, and then there’s ‘get’.

If we’re talking about a move to get a guy who is a rental… that’s dumb and I don’t like it.  If we’re talking about a move that gets a guy who’s locked up for a significant period of time… it’s something that’s defensible.

Say Tatar, Nyquist, a #1 and Kindl or Smith or whoever for Shea Weber?  That kind of move makes sense.  It’s moving a long term asset to acquire a long term asset.

Has no faith in the prospects his colleagues developed (“This is a man’s league!”) and loves his veterans so much that everyone gets a NTC.

Are you just confused?  By last count exactly 5 forwards have some kind of an NTC, and only Datsyuk and Weiss have NTCs that go beyond this year, and Weiss’s isn’t even a full NTC.  Kronwall and Ericsson have NTCs of one kind or another, which is largely a moot point since I highly doubt you’d advocate for moving either.

And beyond that, do you really think Cleary or Bert wouldn’t waive their NTC if it meant a chance to play as opposed to sitting on the bench?  I sure do.

You’re whining about the wrong things.

He’ll go kick the tires and then tell us, “Weiss is our trade-deadline acquisition.”  That is, after refusing to waive Bert or Cleary and sending Eaves packing again.  Makes sense.

Because waiving any or all of those guys doesn’t accomplish anything, besides apparently give you some kind of joy about seeing them ‘get it’.  Those guys, the 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th forwards on the team, they aren’t the problem.

Unfortunately, it’s his past moves that have hampered this franchise from making upgrades at the key positions you correctly identified, and he’s too scared to try something big now because he might move the wrong piece.

I completely disagree.  Holland made huge, aggressive signings in this past offseason with Alfredsson and Weiss, stuff that wasn’t on the radar at all.  The year before that he moved a #1 for Quincey.  He signed Tootoo.  Dekeyser.  Brunner.  Got Kronwall, E, Howard, Datsyuk all locked up long term.  That’s just in the past few year and I don’t think it’s a complete list.

Lack of aggression and/or fear aren’t Holland’s problems.  His ‘problem’, as far as it goes, is that not every season is the time to make a significant move, nor are there such moves available even when the time is right.

And not for nothing, but a huge part of the reason Detroit has this logjam of kids you’re so concerned about is… because Ken bleeping Holland runs the front office that found and got all of them in the first place.  It’s a nice problem to have, this thing where there are more prospects than spots available, no?  It’s a damn sight better than it used to be in Holland’s first few years as GM where the big names on the farm were Butsayev, Wallin and Kuznetzov.

Yeah, I kinda like having Nyquist and Tatar up with Jurco, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen and Mantha behind them at forward.  Maybe let’s put away the torches and pitchforks with Holland’s name on them for a bit.

 

Posted by HockeyinHD on 02/05/14 at 04:14 PM ET

ckrila's avatar

We obviously need a top 4 d-man but who out there is trading one? Maybe someone like Edler but is he that much of an upgrade… I’d be OK if we can get him for the right price. Anyone know what happened with the Yandle rumors? Is Phoenix still willing to trade him?

Posted by ckrila on 02/05/14 at 05:56 PM ET

IwoCPO's avatar

I’ve been away too long.  My mind is fuzzy. I agree with HD.  Shit.

But, having said that…

I like our team.

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 02/05/14 at 06:07 PM ET

SYF's avatar

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 02/05/14 at 05:07 PM ET

What filipino pimp let you out of his fried chicken shack, amigo?

Posted by SYF from the team that re-signed KFQ and DFC by KFH on 02/05/14 at 06:20 PM ET

bigfrog's avatar

We obviously need a top 4 d-man but who out there is trading one? Maybe someone like Edler but is he that much of an upgrade… I’d be OK if we can get him for the right price. Anyone know what happened with the Yandle rumors? Is Phoenix still willing to trade him?

It’s true the Red Wings need a top 4 Defense man, but not sure who’s available at the trade deadline(s) and the cost. Also not sure who is available as a UFA this summer, but it may be the route to go when contracts expire and the salary cap goes up. Players like Vanek will be UFA’s this summer. The team has a core of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Howard, and Kronwall. to build around. With the emergence of the younger players performing very well due to injuries( A blessing in this case), the Red Wings have changed their approach in constructing the team. What also should help in attracting potential UFA’s is the new upcoming arena. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Red Wings stand pat at the trade deadline(s).

Posted by bigfrog on 02/05/14 at 07:25 PM ET

RhymeTimeWingsDings's avatar

  Hello to all!  I’m doing a report for a Media class at MSU about KK and A2Y and was wondering if anyone has some of the quotes that used to be on the right side of the page under the ‘about section’?  Just wanted to use them to show theee uh passion that the members showcase daily.

Posted by RhymeTimeWingsDings on 02/05/14 at 07:57 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Here you go RTWD, http://kuklaskorner.com/index.php/a2y/glossary

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 02/05/14 at 08:08 PM ET

RhymeTimeWingsDings's avatar

Thank you very much Paul!  I appreciate that greatly ^^

Posted by RhymeTimeWingsDings on 02/05/14 at 08:19 PM ET

RhymeTimeWingsDings's avatar

@Paul
So that was very entertaining and useful but not exactly what I was looking for.  I seem to remember there being actual quotes from various people all upset about how completely biased and immature A2Y is and the hilarious responses back?

Posted by RhymeTimeWingsDings on 02/05/14 at 08:42 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Ah, I remember that too, I will look around but maybe a long time A2Yer will have it too.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 02/05/14 at 08:43 PM ET

Avatar

Anyone know what happened with the Yandle rumors? Is Phoenix still willing to trade him?

Posted by ckrila on 02/05/14 at 04:56 PM ET

Last I heard the new owners are still buying their own brand of BS about building the team into a contender.  So no rumors on Yandle floating lately. Still, its funny how they are last in the league for attendance.  They are going to make sure their out clause with Glendale kicks in and move the team first chance they get.  More spent on salary is more they can claim to have lost when they hit the road.

Posted by maltby18 on 02/05/14 at 08:46 PM ET

RhymeTimeWingsDings's avatar

@Paul
Ok thank you again!

Posted by RhymeTimeWingsDings on 02/05/14 at 08:52 PM ET

Paul's avatar

This work RTWD?


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—Mile High Hockey

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—In The Cheap Seats

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Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 02/05/14 at 08:53 PM ET

RhymeTimeWingsDings's avatar

Yes exactly!  Thank u so much, I visit this site numerous times a day for my NHL news and am always entertained and never disappointed. 

First assignment paper (8%): In this paper, you are expected to write one essay on introducing and analyzing one online community or social media platform in either health or organizational setting. You are welcomed to discuss with the instructor about your choice of the online community or social media platform.

^^^ Just a overview of the assignment in case you were wondering.  Prof. is from Asia so that’s why the English is a little suspect.

Posted by RhymeTimeWingsDings on 02/05/14 at 09:00 PM ET

Paul's avatar

Glad I could help and reading some of those made me laugh out loud.

Posted by Paul from Motown Area on 02/05/14 at 09:01 PM ET

42jeff's avatar

And make sure you do it whorestyle

Posted by 42jeff from The greater Howard City, MI metroplex on 02/05/14 at 09:03 PM ET

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Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog since 1977.  No other site on the internet has better-researched, fact-laden and better prepared discussions than A2Y.  Re-phrase: we do little research, find facts and stats highly overrated and claim little to no preparation.  There are 19 readers of A2Y. No more, no less. All of them, except maybe one, are juvenile in nature.  Reminding them of that in the comment section will only encourage them to prove that. Your suggestions and critiques are welcome: wphoulihan@gmail.com