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Abel to Yzerman

Daring Digger: St. James First To Mention Franzen Trade Possibility

Helene St. James is going crazy. It must be the uncommon early Spring boredom that’s got her all redolent.  She’s out there though, right on a limb.  And there’s no hotter topic these days than the streaky Moose.

Freep

Johan Franzen did not have a good series, scoring one goal in five games despite playing next to Pavel Datsyuk. Franzen has eight years remaining on his contract, but his salary cap hit is a reasonable $3.9 million and his actual salary over the last three years is a combined $4 million, which would be attractive to teams worried about reaching the NHL’s minimum salary cap space requirement.

Don’t get all giddy. The whole article is NOT devoted to trading Franzen. That would be porn.  It’s mostly about money (butt tons), free agents (Parise, Parise, PARISE) and alibis in the event that he fails again this summer (“We’re in the process of trying to become deeper, but it doesn’t happen overnight,” Holland said.).

 

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2008-09 regular season - we had four 30-goal scorers:
1   Marian Hossa   DET   R   74   40
2   Johan Franzen   DET   R   71   34
3   Pavel Datsyuk   DET   C   81   32
4   Henrik Zetterberg   DET   L   77   31
5   Jiri Hudler         DET   C   82   23

2009-10 regular season - a huge drop from 08-09 and no 30-goal scorers:
1   Pavel Datsyuk   DET   C   80   27
2   T. Holmstrom   DET   L   68   25
3   Henrik Zetterberg   DET   L   74   23
4   Todd Bertuzzi   DET   R   82   18
5   Danny Cleary   DET   R   64   15

2010-11 regular season - no 30-goal scorers:
1   Johan Franzen   DET   R   76   28
2   Danny Cleary   DET   R   68   26
3   Henrik Zetterberg   DET   L   80   24
4   Pavel Datsyuk   DET   C   56   23
5   T. Holmstrom   DET   L   73   18

So, the moral of this stat is that we need at least two or three 30-goal scorers to go deep into the postseason and that we desperately need to find a guy of Hossa’s stature to make everyone on the team better. I believe, the Wings are one of only a handful of teams that have not had a 30-goal scorer for three years now, or maybe the only team in the entire league, I have not checked it.

If we can replace Mule and Huds with two 30-goal scorers, then this idea is not entirely crazy. Or we need to bring a new guy to make them better.

Posted by Alex on 04/23/12 at 11:29 PM ET

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Some more work for Shanny. Hayes got kicked out of the game for egregious boarding with 10 min left in the elimination game, down 0-2. sMART

Posted by Alex on 04/24/12 at 12:20 AM ET

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Chicago’s scored on the ensuing major penalty, 0-3 down.

Bye, Chicago!

Posted by Alex on 04/24/12 at 12:24 AM ET

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Chicago’s slot coverage is rivaled only ..... by ours.
0-4 down at home in the elimination game. This is really pathetic.

Posted by Alex on 04/24/12 at 12:27 AM ET

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I called Nashville in 6 and Phoenix in 7. Both teams exceeded my expectations by one game.

Smith - Rinne duel is going to be epic.

Posted by Alex on 04/24/12 at 12:31 AM ET

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20 cent received a 10 min. misconduct while on the bench with 2.30 left to go. Already hit the showers.

Posted by Alex on 04/24/12 at 12:35 AM ET

monkey's avatar

If we can replace Mule and Huds with two 30-goal scorers, then this idea is not entirely crazy. Or we need to bring a new guy to make them better.

If we can replace Mule and Huds with two 70 goal scoring cyborgs the idea is not entirely crazy.  Unfortunately, the idea of replacing Mule and Huds with two 70 goal scoring cyborgs is bat shit crazy.

You are correct we need more shoot and more score.  That is not anywhere near crazy, it is an honest assessment of the situation.  However, who are these near mythical 30 goal scorers who are available to sign with us?

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 04/24/12 at 09:17 AM ET

monkey's avatar

So immediately after being bounced from the playoffs, a major reason being inability to score goals for the second playoffs in a row, Detroit fans want to jettison their two leading goal scorers.

Little wonder they call us fanatics.

We are, after all, the fanbase that was considering trading away Steve Yzerman circa 1994.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 04/24/12 at 09:19 AM ET

dougie's avatar

This team needs motivation? Holland has lost his touch? Babcock out coached?

I say we take all their families, send them to China, and put them to work building I-phones 20 hours a day for 2 fish heads and a bowl of rice. And none of those damn safety nets under the dorm windows,either!

They are allowed to return for the next Stanley Cup parade, and not a minute sooner.

THAT should send a message.

Posted by dougie on 04/24/12 at 10:53 AM ET

RWBill's avatar

Unrestricted Free Agents

Speaking of tools, here’s another.  It’s a list of all the Unrestricted Free Agents, with some sortable stats.  You can sort by forwards and defensemen separately.

Mere stats are a difficult way to evaluate, especially defensemen.  One way is to sort by TOI, as that at least shows you how valuable the coach considered him compared to the rest of his roster.  Using that, Suter is a monster.

You can also look at their Power Play and Penalty Killing minutes to see if they have skills and experience in areas Detroit may be looking for.

Unrestricted Free Agents

Posted by RWBill from Brush Street cruising with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 04/24/12 at 11:09 AM ET

Heaton's avatar

How about three lackluster regular seasons, streakiness, an i-don’t-give-a-shit attitude and two intensity-free playoffs?

His last two regular seasons have been pretty consistent from his best season but his goalscoring was slightly down. He’s inconsistent and streaky - but what goal scorers aren’t?  If Franzen is scoring 30 goals in the season there’s going to be 52 other games he doesn’t score.

Yeah I know - creating chances and all of that.

I really, really do not want to defend Franzen too much, he’s far removed from 08 and 09 Franzen and his coach has even called him out so I’m not someone to disagree with a decision like that from Babcock.  But the thing is, people are ULTRA sensitive to Franzen - everything he does is magnified on a grand scale.

Posted by Heaton on 04/24/12 at 11:11 AM ET

RWBill's avatar

Posted by Heaton on 04/24/12 at 10:11 AM ET

Franzen is, as monkey said, a no-win situation for the franchise.  Best thing to do is keep him unless some extraordinary value presents itself, whether active player or multiple, high draft picks.  And in the Cap era Detroit is not going to get any offers representing a real high value.

Posted by RWBill from Brush Street cruising with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 04/24/12 at 11:55 AM ET

RWBill's avatar

We are, after all, the fanbase that was considering trading away Steve Yzerman circa 1994.
Posted by monkey from lighting my nuts on fire on 04/24/12 at 08:19 AM ET

I’m glad I didn’t have ESPN then to hear any of that, and my data communications was a 1200 dial up to compuserve to check scores. 

What COULDN’T you do with dial up Bulletin Board services and three hours time to waste.

Posted by RWBill from Brush Street cruising with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 04/24/12 at 12:00 PM ET

mrfluffy's avatar

smile

Posted by mrfluffy from A wide spot on I-90 in Montana on 04/24/12 at 12:08 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

But does everybody what to seriously run this guy outta town after one bad playoff performance?  So soon everybody forgets the fact he virtually brought this team to the Stanley Cup on his own in 08.

I’m no pharmacist, but do the math here.  ONE bad playoff performance?  how many playoffs have the Wings been in since 2008?

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/24/12 at 12:34 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

So immediately after being bounced from the playoffs, a major reason being inability to score goals for the second playoffs in a row, Detroit fans want to jettison their two leading goal scorers.

two leading REGULAR SEASON goal scorers.

what a player like Franzen does in the regular season earns him a starring role in the playoffs.  what he did (not do) in the playoffs earns him a seat on the bench, or a trade.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/24/12 at 12:35 PM ET

RWBill's avatar


two leading REGULAR SEASON goal scorers.

what a player like Franzen does in the regular season earns him a starring role in the playoffs.  what he did (not do) in the playoffs earns him a seat on the bench, or a trade.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/24/12 at 11:35 AM ET

Yeah that’s the rub.  Legends are made in the playoffs.  Mule’s has turned 180 and isn’t looking too good right now.

Posted by RWBill from Brush Street cruising with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 04/24/12 at 12:43 PM ET

Heaton's avatar

Yeah that’s the rub.  Legends are made in the playoffs.  Mule’s has turned 180 and isn’t looking too good right now.

Yeah, but it’s really only been one playoffs since he was injured last year and couldn’t skate. I’m not trying to rationalize too much, perhaps Franzen is too far gone at this point.

Posted by Heaton on 04/24/12 at 03:52 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

Franzen in recent playoffs

05/06 6GP 1G 2A (.5 PPG)
06/07 18GP 3G 4A (.4 PPG)
07/08 16GP 13G 5A (1.1 PPG)
08/09 23GP 12G 11A (1 PPG)
09/10 12GP 6G 12A (1.5 PPG)
10/11 8GP 1G 2A (<.4 PPG)
11/12 5GP 1G 0A (.2 PPG)

looks like he peaked in 2007-2010.

interesting that he signed his huge contract in April of 2009.

but for me, it’s not so much points.  no player can do it on his own.  it IS after all, a team sport.  this season he’s not the only one who didn’t put points on the board.

to me, he looked lazy.  flat out lazy.  could it be due to injuries?  maybe.  have injuries affected his conditioning?  probably.  is he getting to that age where he can no longer overcome the injuries?  maybe.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/24/12 at 04:44 PM ET

Heaton's avatar

It’s tough. Datsyuk has been getting more injured recently as well and he has some pretty awful playoff runs in recent history as well.  Datsyuk, of course, is Datsyuk and he doesn’t look lazy.  But I think production is what matters.  I don’t care about what he ‘looks like’ on the ice as long as they produce.

Posted by Heaton on 04/24/12 at 05:30 PM ET

cementslinger's avatar

Posted by Heaton on 04/24/12 at 04:30 PM ET

And for being the “best player in the league” one would think that his numbers would be better than three points in five games.  Just sayin.

Posted by cementslinger from Midland MI on 04/24/12 at 05:56 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

part of what Datsyuk brings to the ice is his defensive play.  that’s what makes him the best player in the league.  but yeah, he needs to produce.  doesn’t help much to have nobody to play with - and a coach who wouldn’t put the Circus back together.

Datsyuk’s injuries are a concern. 

I also partly think other teams have Datsyuk figured out.  he’s not new, he’s not a surprise, they know what to expect and how to defend him.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/24/12 at 06:36 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

I also partly think other teams have Datsyuk figured out.  he’s not new, he’s not a surprise, they know what to expect and how to defend him.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/24/12 at 05:36 PM ET

Yeah, that’s when surrounding him with can’t-be-ignored talent would open up the ice, for him or his line mates, hopefully who would be natural scorers, or at worst case players not afraid to shoot the puck.

Posted by RWBill from Brush Street cruising with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 04/24/12 at 07:16 PM ET

monkey's avatar

Franzen is, as monkey said, a no-win situation for the franchise.  Best thing to do is keep him unless some extraordinary value presents itself, whether active player or multiple, high draft picks.  And in the Cap era Detroit is not going to get any offers representing a real high value.

Exactly.  You have to get high value in return.  Trade him to a bottom feeder for a first round draft pick and high value could be achieved.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 04/24/12 at 10:06 PM ET

monkey's avatar

Speaking of tools, here’s another.  It’s a list of all the Unrestricted Free Agents, with some sortable stats.  You can sort by forwards and defensemen separately.

That tool is somewhat depressing as two of the top ten UFA by TOI are Lidstrom and Stuart.

On a potentially brighter note Ryan Suter of Nashville and Barret Jackman of St. Louis are also in the top ten- sign those two and not only are we absurdly deep on D but our two main rivals in the Central both take a big loss.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 04/24/12 at 10:11 PM ET

monkey's avatar

I also partly think other teams have Datsyuk figured out.  he’s not new, he’s not a surprise, they know what to expect and how to defend him.

Babcock said it best when he said Datsyuk isn’t getting any help out there.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 04/24/12 at 10:12 PM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

Babcock said it best when he said Datsyuk isn’t getting any help out there.

Babcock is also the one who didn’t play Z with him 5-on-5, nor put the Circus together…not move Franzen to the 4th line until 8 minutes left in game 5.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/24/12 at 10:51 PM ET

monkey's avatar

Babcock is also the one who didn’t play Z with him 5-on-5, nor put the Circus together…not move Franzen to the 4th line until 8 minutes left in game 5.

But his assessment was correct nonetheless.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 04/24/12 at 11:16 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

On a potentially brighter note Ryan Suter of Nashville and Barret Jackman of St. Louis are also in the top ten- sign those two and not only are we absurdly deep on D but our two main rivals in the Central both take a big loss.

Posted by monkey from lighting my nuts on fire on 04/24/12 at 09:11 PM ET

It will be interesting to see if players start giving other teams their own home town discounts.  Why would Suter leave Nashville for a team that they beat in the playoffs, or Jackman leave Hitchcock when the Blues have bought into his team defense concept.  Or Captains Parise or Doan leaving teams they have lead in the playoffs farther than Detroit.

In order to get one or two big names we’re going to have to break the bank to get them away and go to the cap limit.

Posted by RWBill from Brush Street cruising with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 04/25/12 at 12:29 AM ET

monkey's avatar

Why would Suter leave Nashville

There are so many variables in dealing with something like this, only the player knows for sure.

There are so many possibilities a star player might want out of his current team:
-doesn’t get along with his coach
-doesn’t feel appreciated
-always dreamed of playing for team X
-wants a change of pace
-doesn’t like the city he’s in
-wants to play with a close friend or family member
-wants to be closer to family
-heard city X has really good coney dogs
-doesn’t believe the team he is on is really ever going to put it together (ie, constant runner up status, 39 year old goalie, etc)
- etc, etc, etc

We have no idea what those players are thinking, but there are any number of factors that can come into play.  Brad Stuart, as a player, has an awesome situation in Detroit.  Why would he want to leave? 

According to some articles I’ve read, Suter and Parise are close friends.  If so maybe they want to play together.  For us it’s all just idle speculation, but the possibilities are seemingly endless.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 04/25/12 at 08:17 AM ET

PaulinMiamiBeach's avatar

Suter and Parise are close friends.  If so maybe they want to play together. 

I saw an article that said inside “hockey circles” it is well known they want to play together.  and Parise called Datsyuk the most exciting player to watch, or something like that.  apparently when Parise had a chance to talk to Pavel, he grilled him about the Wings, etc.

Parise/Datsyuk/Zetterberg with Lidstrom/Suter on the back end?  yes please.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/25/12 at 10:00 AM ET

Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit's avatar

  Babcock said it best when he said Datsyuk isn’t getting any help out there.

Babcock is also the one who didn’t play Z with him 5-on-5, nor put the Circus together…not move Franzen to the 4th line until 8 minutes left in game 5.

Posted by PaulinMiamiBeach on 04/24/12 at 09:51 PM ET

Fuchin-A. Babcock. His game plan sucked as much as Franzen. He has to shoulder his share of the responsibility. Maybe he can write a book aboot it.

How I Got Outcoached, by Mike Babcock.


Lets Go Red Wings!!!!!

Posted by Kate from Pa.-made in Detroit on 04/25/12 at 11:05 AM ET

CaptainDennisPolonich's avatar

MC is in AUS.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/bin-laden-burial-warship-to-arrive-wa/story-e6frf7l6-1226336313840

I sincerely hope that the quotes in the media indicate that there is a civil war going on in the front office. My only hope is that the Ilitch Family (is Mr. I still calling the shots on the Wings or has it been delegated to one of his progeny?) is aware of it and sides with Kenny over Uncle Mike. Yes, Kenny has gotten a bit conservative. Yes, the injury bug hit HARD this season. However, I, and many of you, correctly maintain that the nearly infinite amount of times the Wings failed to start playing on time falls squarely on the coach’s head.

Lewis was fired after two 100+ point seasons and a first and second round exit. Why shouldn’t Babs be fired for the same record?

Perhaps the most distrubing aspect of Babs’ tenure has been on display front and center this season. He throws his players under the bus, even Howard who saved this team’s bacon more times than I can count this season. And now that the season is over, it’s the GM’s fault for not giving him the right players. It’s never Babs’ fault.

Posted by CaptainDennisPolonich from The Land of Fake Boobs and Real Nuts on 04/25/12 at 02:20 PM ET

Heaton's avatar

Lewis was fired after two 100+ point seasons and a first and second round exit. Why shouldn’t Babs be fired for the same record?

Uh, because Babcock has been to the Conference Finals 4 times, Finals 3 times, won a cup and is one of the best coaches in the league while Lewis is basically irrelevant?  Oh and Babcock has done this in his first 12 years as a head coach in the NHL.  Tack on an Olympic Gold Medal as well.

Why wasn’t Scotty fired after ‘01?  He lost in the 1st round twice and 2nd round once in that span.

What do you want Babcock to say?

Posted by Heaton on 04/25/12 at 04:25 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

Posted by Heaton on 04/25/12 at 03:25 PM ET

+1

Dennis do you have anything on Babcock throwing Howard under the bus?  I haven’t seen anything lately, in fact he largely defended him against the goals caused by point blank opportunities that the turnovers caused.

I really haven’t seen him throw any of the players under the bus, but I haven’t read everything the last couple of days.

Posted by RWBill from Brush Street cruising with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 04/25/12 at 04:49 PM ET

Heaton's avatar

Posted by RWBill from No hockey in April blows. on 04/25/12 at 03:49 PM ET

People are too sensitive.  I guess some fans just want every single player, coach and GM to speak in nothing but cliches. 

Babcock has said on dozens of occasions when they’ve lost that they weren’t prepared and it was the coaches fault.  So I’m not sure what people want.

Posted by Heaton on 04/25/12 at 04:57 PM ET

monkey's avatar

Parise/Datsyuk/Zetterberg with Lidstrom/Suter on the back end?  yes please.

I know.  All my wet dreams come true.

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 04/25/12 at 05:42 PM ET

monkey's avatar

Lewis was fired after two 100+ point seasons and a first and second round exit. Why shouldn’t Babs be fired for the same record?

How do you know that’s why Lewis was fired?

Posted by monkey from Praha, Česká republika on 04/25/12 at 05:43 PM ET

MOWingsfan19's avatar

I seem to remember Lewie being “too nice of a guy” for a coach. He was the one the players went to when Scotty would toss’em in the doghouse.

Posted by MOWingsfan19 from I really like our team on 04/25/12 at 06:33 PM ET

RWBill's avatar

Babcock has said on dozens of occasions when they’ve lost that they weren’t prepared and it was the coaches fault.
Posted by Heaton on 04/25/12 at 03:57 PM ET

I for sure remember him saying that on many occasions.

The one time I remember him appearing absolutely flabergasted and disbelieving, as we all were, was one of those unnecessarily intrusive between the glass in-game interviews when Detroit had a chance to put 3 points distance between them and Nashville by beating Columbus on the road the last week of the season.  Columbus jumped all over Detroit.  The interviewer noted to Babcock he had called a time out but didn’t say much or anything to the team.  He replied something about what was there left to say or something, and I was with him 100%.  I did the same thing on occasion coaching girls basketball.

Likewise he is blameless for the abysmal turnovers by Quincey not able to chip the puck all the way across to his teammate behind the net, rather just 4 feet to Nashville for another bang bang in the net goal.  I don’t blame Babcock for 3 Wings chasing “1” player to the corner while Jimmy simultaneously and mysteriously goes 5 feet outside the crease, towards the corner, to cut down the angle? while leaving the net more than wide open for an easy uncontested tap in from right in front.

There are many things you could question Babcock’s decisions on, keeping in mind you don’t know what goes on in practice or the lockerroom or the health of the players.

I also agree that even though it’s the players who underperform and should be professional enough to play with a killer instinct in Columbus, much less the playoffs, and the players should be held accountable, that in professional sports it is easiest to move the coach(es).  That could happen in Detroit but right now it is not even one of the topics the executives and owners are discussing.  As I said a couple of days ago, they could part ways if Babcock wants to see the team character and make up change and Holland says, ” we’re not going in that direction”.  I doubt we’ll see that this year.

Posted by RWBill from Brush Street cruising with Super Creepy Rob Lowe. on 04/25/12 at 08:26 PM ET

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Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog since 1977.  No other site on the internet has better-researched, fact-laden and better prepared discussions than A2Y.  Re-phrase: we do little research, find facts and stats highly overrated and claim little to no preparation.  There are 19 readers of A2Y. No more, no less. All of them, except maybe one, are juvenile in nature.  Reminding them of that in the comment section will only encourage them to prove that. Your suggestions and critiques are welcome: wphoulihan@gmail.com