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Abel to Yzerman

At This Point In Time

via Ted Kulfan of the Detroit News,

“We’re a better team than that. It was embarrassing at times,” defenseman Niklas Kronwall said. “We were all over the place and nowhere to be found. We didn’t generate a lot, and there were way too many chances for them.”

“I liked the way we started, things were going good for about three minutes,” coach Mike Babcock said. “They shot the puck in the net and we lost momentum. We didn’t have a very good effort from that point on.”

“We’re a fragile group,” Babcock said. “When things we bad, we lost energy instead of gritting our teeth and get going. We need to win a game to feel better about ourselves.”

“We keep talking about certain things, but enough said,” Kronwall said. “It’s time to go out and do something about it.”

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Comments

Mandingo's avatar

POST-LOSS RANDOM QUOTE GENERATOR

Posted by Mandingo from The Garage on 12/18/13 at 11:58 AM ET

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“It’s time to go out and do something about it.” Kronwall said, glaring at Ken Holland.

Posted by Garth on 12/18/13 at 11:58 AM ET

Red Winger's avatar

“We’re a better team than that. It was embarrassing at times,”

“at times”???

Did he spend a period in the locker-room?

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 12/18/13 at 12:05 PM ET

mrfluffy's avatar

I get that Pavel is very ‘off’ and is probably playing too soon…

...and I’m could get permabanned for saying this but…

...has Pavel ever carried this team by himself?

Yzerman has.

I’m not sure if Lidstrom has but given his postion…

Zetterberg has.

And all of those 3 have…produced when not playing 100%.

If this is what the team is producing with a 70 or 80% Pavel on the ice, sit him.

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 12/18/13 at 12:08 PM ET

mrfluffy's avatar

“I’m could get”...

Holy faux maybe I shouldn’t type on a keyboard this early in the morning…or ever.

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 12/18/13 at 12:08 PM ET

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“at times”???

Sure.  It wasn’t embarrassing when Jurco scored and it wasn’t embarrassing when Quincey boarded Getzlaf, because it took attention away from the rest of the team.

I can’t think of many other times it wasn’t embarrassing…

If this is what the team is producing with a 70 or 80% Pavel on the ice, sit him.

I agree that he probably hasn’t carried the team by himself, but I don’t think he’ll get better by sitting.  I think he needs to play.

Posted by Garth on 12/18/13 at 12:22 PM ET

redxblack's avatar

As long as Pavel doesn’t take another hit to the head, sitting or playing won’t matter toward his recovery. Playing might help get him acclimated to the ice again and sitting won’t.

That game was really terrible. If they don’t right the ship soon, there will be very little hockey through the April in the D period.

Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 12/18/13 at 01:07 PM ET

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Are you guys seriously discussing sitting Pavel Datsyuk? Have you all lost your minds?

Posted by George0211 on 12/18/13 at 01:09 PM ET

mrfluffy's avatar

Are you guys seriously discussing sitting Pavel Datsyuk? Have you all lost your minds?

Posted by George0211 on 12/18/13 at 12:09 PM ET

Yes and Yes.

He’s not right, and putting him out there with 3 lines of bottom sixers is not going to help much…IMO…

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 12/18/13 at 01:15 PM ET

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He’s not right, and putting him out there with 3 lines of bottom sixers is not going to help much…IMO…

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 12/18/13 at 12:15 PM ET

I don’t agree. If the issue is that he is still trying to get back to playing form, then sitting him doesn’t solve anything.
What could be happening, and I hope to God, that is not the case. It could be that he is a changed player after getting clocked in the head. If that’s the case, Red Wings are in for a world of hurt. And even if that is the case, sitting him would only make things worse for him.

Oh my god, I am discussing sitting Pavel Datsyuk. I should be shot.

Posted by George0211 on 12/18/13 at 01:18 PM ET

topshelf14's avatar

Very valid pint about Pavel. He does not seem to carry a team like as or Yzerman. He’s more of a superb compliment like a fedorov.

Posted by topshelf14 from Detroit, MI on 12/18/13 at 01:18 PM ET

mrfluffy's avatar

He’s more of a superb compliment like a fedorov.

Posted by topshelf14 from Hockeytown, USA on 12/18/13 at 12:18 PM ET

I don’t know if I’d say that…Pavel has hands and balance Fedorov could never dream of.

But I’m not sure if Pavel has the skating and shot Fedorov had…

All this said…I don’t think Pavel nor Fedorov are just complimentary players; they can carry a team…but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen either do so unlike Yzerman or Zetterberg.

Oh my god, I am discussing sitting Pavel Datsyuk. I should be shot.

Posted by George0211 on 12/18/13 at 12:18 PM ET

Likewise.

Posted by mrfluffy from Long Beach on 12/18/13 at 01:38 PM ET

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Datsyuk hasn’t ever had to carry a team - he’s always been on a team where someone else has had the captain role. Now, for the first time in his career, he’s being in the position to “carry the team” and the team he’s supposed to carry is loaded with AHLers and other guys who are either green (less than a full season in the NHL) or are washed up veterans.

So we are going to point out how he’s never “carried” a team? He’s never been in that role and now that he is, how can we criticize him for not carrying this group? I’d even argue that he’s been a major-league effort/points/etc. leader when the team has slumped before - wouldn’t that count as “carrying” the team?

Overall, I think this is an invalid point or is irrelevant. The problem with this team is that too many key players are out.

Take Pittsburgh and take out Crosby and Malkin (for the games when Pav and Z were both out) and then take a good defenseman and then their third-line center and also take Kunitz or Neal out. See how they play. Or do the same with Chicago, LA, Anaheim, SJ, Boston - any of those teams would be in a tailspin.

Unfortunately, just chalk up another 5-8 losses over the next 5-10 games and hope they go on a run with everyone healthy.

Posted by VitoLambruski on 12/18/13 at 01:40 PM ET

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I know there is a lot of hate on this board for Fedorov, but saying he never carried the team is just crazy.
He won the MVP the year Yzerman was out for 26 games.

if anything the complaint with Fedorov was that he played worse when the big guys were in the lineup.  He seemed to only step it up when they were out.

Posted by pawl91 on 12/18/13 at 01:55 PM ET

Slumpy's avatar

Well here’s the ugly:

Andersson, Kindl and Quincey all have played 36 games and all are -10 +/-.

Kindl has shot the puck 56 times yet at a putrid 1.8% and Quincey accuracy is at 1.9%.

Quincey does though lead the team with 41 PIMs so he’s our Tiger Williams I guess and we all know how many SC rings Tiger finished with 0.

Ducks have a few veteran gritty defenseman named Allen and Beachemin anchoring them and last night I heard Mick sat Dekeyser may be our best defenseman and he wasn’t playing.
Our team is in serious trouble.

 

Posted by Slumpy from Detroit on 12/18/13 at 01:55 PM ET

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All this said…I don’t think Pavel nor Fedorov are just complimentary players; they can carry a team…but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen either do so unlike Yzerman or Zetterberg.

It’s kind of hard to say that someone can carry a team if you’ve never seen them carry a team.  We know that Zetterberg can because he has.

Datsyuk hasn’t ever had to carry a team - he’s always been on a team where someone else has had the captain role.

Zetterberg carried the team when he wasn’t captain.

Being the captain isn’t the only time one can carry a team.  Carrying a team is about seeing that they’re struggling and stepping up to shoulder an extra workload. it has little to do with having a letter on the front of your sweater.

I would say that it’s more likely that a player receives that letter on his sweater because he has carried a team, not that a player is able to carry a team because he has that letter.

Kindl has shot the puck 56 times yet at a putrid 1.8% and Quincey accuracy is at 1.9%.

1) Shooting percentage isn’t accuracy.
2) Are you really judging defensemen on shooting percentage?

These aren’t snipers we’re talking about.  And why does Smith get a pass?  If Kindl’s and Quincey’s numbers are putrid then what’s Brendan Smith’s 0.0%?  Rancid?

Posted by Garth on 12/18/13 at 02:17 PM ET

Red Winger's avatar

Dekesyer shouldn’t be our best d-man, at least not yet, but he probably is, because Kronner is going through one of his many “who am I? Why do I exist? is there a God” moments he has each year.

Posted by Red Winger from Sault Ste Marie on 12/18/13 at 03:00 PM ET

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Not for nothing, but Datsyuk’s 35.  I’m not entirely sure it’s fair to expect him to be able to put the team on his back at this point in his career.

The ‘problem’ in Detroit right now, unavoidable as it may be, is that all of their best players are older.  Yzerman and Fedorov were similarly separated in age to D and Z (4 years apart for Yzerman and Feds, 3 for D and Z), but the big difference is that when Yzerman was hitting 35 and Feds was 31 Datsyuk and Z were coming up.  Datsyuk was up the year Yzerman turned 36, Z the next.

You saw a young future at forward, gotten with tremendous late picks in stark contrast to how the rest of the NHL has attempted to rebuild.  And, you know, that Lidstrom guy was here too.

Now, in 2013, none of that exists.  If you want to blame Holland for that, go ahead I guess, but the standard of getting a D and Z every 8 years is impossibly high.  Nyquist and Jurco are NHL-level players, or will be soon, but they aren’t top flight sure thing top line forwards as D and Z obviously were from fairly early on.  They are both likely middle six guys.

IMO the top ceiling guys Detroit has in their whole system at forward who’ll be ready anytime soon is Pulkinnen and then Jarnkrok, but again we’re not talking about D and Z level talents.

What all that means is that as D and Z continue to age and decline Detroit’s not going to be able to replace them as easily as they did Yzerman and Fedorov while they did the same.  Which means we’re going to get a couple of pretty ugly years here coming up.

Detroit’s going to dodge the worst of it because they got moved to the East, and the East is worse than the West by quite a bit.  Were Detroit in the West they’d be somewhere around 10th in the conference and the Full Suck (tm) would be wholly engaged.  In the East they can dick around, be awful, and still snake a 7th or 8th seed with anything approaching a bit of non-awful luck.

I know this isn’t how Holland runs things, but I’ve advocated for a full dump-and-suck season to get a high pick for a few years now, especially when things look like they’re going to go all wobbly anyway as they did in 2012.  Oh well.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/18/13 at 03:42 PM ET

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especially when things look like they’re going to go all wobbly anyway as they did in 2012.  Oh well.

I think its worth mentioning that they pushed the cup champions to the brink last year.  Nothings for sure.

Posted by neffernin on 12/18/13 at 03:55 PM ET

redxblack's avatar

Nyquist and Jarnkrok had a 40/13 kind of eurotwin chemistry in GR. Holland needs to assess hard all of the prospects and crap or get off the pot. We have the talent in the system. We’re not using it because we like over-committing to people who need to hang up their skates (37, 71 for example).

Posted by redxblack from Akron Ohio on 12/18/13 at 04:15 PM ET

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I think its worth mentioning that they pushed the cup champions to the brink last year.  Nothings for sure.

I was talking about the year that ended in 2012, 2011-2012, when they lost badly to the Preds in round 1… not 2012-13.

But yeah, nothings for sure, you just have to play the probabilities.  If you play blackjack you could hit a 3 on an 18 and get 21, but you’re better off not risking it. 

I’m also not advocating the dump and suck every year, or even twice.  Once.  One year, get a top 5 pick.  Imagine how much stronger the pipeline would be if in addition to the great middle-tier depth Holland’s accumulated through very efficient drafting he can also cherry on top it with one shot in the ultra-high talent pool?

Or, you know, maybe trading a pick like that in a package for Weber instead?  Think Nashville might bite on a package that had a top 5-10 pick in it, given the nature of RFA status?  I do.

Posted by HockeyinHD on 12/18/13 at 04:53 PM ET

dougie's avatar

“We’re a fragile group,” Babcock said.

Even if I thought it was the brutal truth, I would not utter those words about a struggling Timbits team, much less a professional hockey club.

A supersized cup of STFU for you, Babcock.

Might as well say “My guys are a bunch of pussies”

Posted by dougie on 12/19/13 at 02:17 PM ET

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Welcome to Abel to Yzerman, a Red Wing blog since 1977.  No other site on the internet has better-researched, fact-laden and better prepared discussions than A2Y.  Re-phrase: we do little research, find facts and stats highly overrated and claim little to no preparation.  There are 19 readers of A2Y. No more, no less. All of them, except maybe one, are juvenile in nature.  Reminding them of that in the comment section will only encourage them to prove that. Your suggestions and critiques are welcome: wphoulihan@gmail.com